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Wild Country Krab issue?

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Addison wrote:The rope couldn't hold the weight of the dude's belly in the background.
haha...is that a half shirt?
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Or better yet, they could design climbers who know not to misuse their gear and end up cross loading their biners.

Btw, what ever happened to personal responsibility? Biners have been made this way for decades without much a problem, so why should the manufactures suddenly be responsible for actively preventing you from getting hurt when misusing the gear?

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Mark Lewis wrote: In your opinion the rope isn't unsafe but you still recommend retiring it? Sounds like you're saying completely opposite things. The rope damage shown in the picture absolutely makes the rope unsafe for climbing use. Was I misunderstanding your point?
Yes you are, the rope is perfectly fine for rapping and is not going to come anywhere near breaking under a body weight load (or even a lead fall for that matter). It does however need to be retired because of the sheath damage. A ropes strength is somethin like 80% core, 20% sheath, so even a figure eight knot will reduce the strength of the rope by about the same amount that damage will.
Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Aric Datesman wrote:Or better yet, they could design climbers who know not to misuse their gear and end up cross loading their biners. Btw, what ever happened to personal responsibility? Biners have been made this way for decades without much a problem, so why should the manufactures suddenly be responsible for actively preventing you from getting hurt when misusing the gear?
Maybe I completely overlooked it but I do not recall ever reading or being told that I shouldn't cross load because it might result in rope damage. The warnings are in relation to the reduced strength.

And, regardless of whether the manufacturers are responsible (I don't think they are), why not make a change if it results in safer gear?
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Personally, I think there's no reason to make a change because it's a non-issue (how many other instances of this have you heard of?) and because the only way it happens is when the gear is mid-used. Ymmv.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
Aric Datesman wrote:Or better yet, they could design climbers who know not to misuse their gear and end up cross loading their biners. Btw, what ever happened to personal responsibility? Biners have been made this way for decades without much a problem, so why should the manufactures suddenly be responsible for actively preventing you from getting hurt when misusing the gear?
Whether you admit it or not, biners will become crossloaded on occasion. If it hasn't happened to you, you don't climb often enough. Usually it is not a problem and you notice it and flip it and all is ok. If you had the choice between a biner with a sharper edge that was more likely to cause this type of damage when cross-loaded, and one that was not..which would you choose. It's a no-brainer. All things being equal, you'd choose the biner without the sharp edge.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
csproul wrote: Whether you admit it or not, biners will become crossloaded on occasion. If it hasn't happened to you, you don't climb often enough. Usually it is not a problem and you notice it and flip it and all is ok. If you had the choice between a biner with a sharper edge that was more likely to cause this type of damage when cross-loaded, and one that was not..which would you choose. It's a no-brainer. All things being equal, you'd choose the biner without the sharp edge.
Yes, but removing the sharp edges would increase the manufacturing costs which would increase the cost of the biner, so all things wouldn't be equal. Personally, I'd rather have the less expensive biner since the probability of having this happen is so low (especially if you watch your gear).
Josh Olson · · Durango, CO · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 255

Rounding over the sharp edge won't do all that much, would it? That tiny piece of steel could be dull as hell, it is so tiny that it would still cut through the rope, right?

Hell, butter knifes can cut loaded ropes. Easily.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

People pay higher prices all the time for features they may or may not really need.

Example:

BD Magnetron

I can't say I've used every locking carabiner out there. I have no doubt that there are some biners with sharper edges than others. It's not inconceivable that there'd be some carabiners that I'd prefer not to use given the choice. I'd not be willing to say this is 100% user error until I saw the carabiner in question. Some of y'all act like you be fine and dandy if this happened to you. I'd not blame the manufacturer, but I'd think twice about using that locker again if it had a sharper edge than my other biners.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

I'm just gonna throw this out there... Yes, the dude cross loaded the biner and that's an issue but I'd be willing to bet that ain't the whole issue.

I purchased a Sterling Velocity 9.8 about a year or so ago and the after one fixed line rappel to clean a route on fine grained Gneiss rock my rope was almost entirely cut. I couldn't find anything distinctively sharp enough for me to say, "oh that's what cut it." After a very close inspection I was basically left say WTF, how did this happen, wtf cut this rope?

I've had several other ropes over the years and I've never had a core shot so easily and so quickly and I've been climbing almost 20 years. I was amazed to say the least. A friend who once worked at Sterling thought maybe the sheath had a tight strand and that caused the cutting but Sterling said it would only cut that strand not the rope.

My Maxium 9.8 rope has been in use 7 years now and been over some seriously sharp edges, it's been my workhorse rope, and it has fuzz and a little core shot but basically it's in great shape considering and has been beaten to hell and survived. The Sterling rope almost killed me after maybe two uses and looks almost exactly like the OP's photo. I honestly suspect Sterling has a durability issue with their sheath and the quality of the ropes at this point.

I personally will not be buying another Sterling anytime soon, or cross loading a locker (though I have with my other ropes and never had this issue, luck?).

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
csproul wrote: Whether you admit it or not, biners will become crossloaded on occasion. If it hasn't happened to you, you don't climb often enough. Usually it is not a problem and you notice it and flip it and all is ok. If you had the choice between a biner with a sharper edge that was more likely to cause this type of damage when cross-loaded, and one that was not..which would you choose. It's a no-brainer. All things being equal, you'd choose the biner without the sharp edge.
As I said, YMMV. But no matter how you look at it, shredding the rope like this is far from a common occurance and only happens when the biner is cross loaded, which is a no-no.
csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330
kennoyce wrote: Yes, but removing the sharp edges would increase the manufacturing costs which would increase the cost of the biner, so all things wouldn't be equal. Personally, I'd rather have the less expensive biner since the probability of having this happen is so low (especially if you watch your gear).
Forget buying a new biner. I have a dozen or so different locking carabiners at home. I have never given any thought as to whether one of them might be more likely to shred a rope if cross loaded. If I found out that one of them was more likely to do so, I'd think hard about using that carabiner for rappelling or belaying. Even so, I'd guess that is a very rare occurrence and probably not at the top of my list of things to worry about.

The real question...why was he rappelling from the anchor?! Lower off that shit!
Rogerlarock Mix · · Nedsterdam, Colorado · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 5

The issue here ain't the biner. It's operator error. "failed to notice my biner was cross-loaded..." On your main system? How is that possible?
I'm so over reading about rappelling incidents.

Get a clue and pay fucking attention to what you're doing.

David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
csproul wrote: I have no doubt that there are some biners with sharper edges than others. It's not inconceivable that there'd be some carabiners that I'd prefer not to use given the choice. I'd not be willing to say this is 100% user error until I saw the carabiner in question. Some of y'all act like you be fine and dandy if this happened to you. I'd not blame the manufacturer, but I'd think twice about using that locker again if it had a sharper edge than my other biners.
Look at your biners at home before you argue this point further, you might be surprised by how many have similarly "sharp" edges but still haven't killed you. All of my lockers (petzl William, Attache, Am'd, Wild Country Oxygen, BD Rocklock, etc.) have the same "sharp" edge at the gate hinge. So if you think you are not going to use your "sharp" lockers, you are going to be throwing out alot of biners that have been working fine for years.
Chad Wagner · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 75

Morgan, I'm with you man. I have 2 partners who use this rope and I can honestly say that it sucks. It felt as if it was falling apart after the first weekend. They seem to think the rope is great, untill it core shot on the third weekend. Horrible rope. Not to say that's the problem, but i will personally never buy a Sterling.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

IF this sharp edge vexes you so much, simply sand it round carefully with some sandpaper.

Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Stich wrote:IF this sharp edge vexes you so much, simply sand it round carefully with some sandpaper.
But, Black Diamond doesn't have a video that shows me how to do it.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
Crag Dweller wrote: But, Black Diamond doesn't have a video that shows me how to do it.
Well, then yer just gonna die!!111
climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 286

I am stunned so many of you do not consider this a problem. Even if this is very rare, it happened at least once and worthy of being reported to the manufacturer and the community. I would be scared shitless if that happened to my rope and not use it even to get down unless there was absolutely no other option.

It looks like a design flaw in the biner to me. The gate does not close far enough leaving the 'sharp edge' exposed to snag the rope. Keylock biners do not have this particular problem.

If rare and unusual events were treated as non-issues we would never gotten wire gate biners that a resistant to gate slap and many other improvements. I do not think the manufacturer produced a defective product, was negligent, or produced a bad product. This is simply a data point which can be used to design a better product in the future.

I am glad the OP decided to post his experience.

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Seriously, Climber Pat? A design flaw?

As I asked before, how many times has this issue come up, out of how many carabiners produced and used over several decades?

Quite simply the biner got cross loaded, and the OP should have known better than to weight it in that configuration. Hate to step over this line, but you can't design out stupid. No matter what the manufacturers do to make gear idiot-proof, someone will come along with a better idiot.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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