Altering permadraws: Ethical or not?

Sorry, didn't notice you were from Tennessee. That was quite insensitive of me. Imbecile. Is that better?

You new comers need to check out the permadraw debates of the past, so much more entertaining than this filth. And please, for the love of God, if you don't want to hear it then don't read it.
I had a real question up there too, anyone?

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:Question: if a climber chooses to place their own draw higher and therefore on a link joined by other links is there risk of breaking a biner or links by pinching between link and biner?

No, I've never seen any testing on it, but the aluminum would have to be extremely soft (much softer than what is used on carabiners) for this to happen. Now if the chain kept the biner from rotating to align itself with the direction of the force properly, this could cause the biner to fail, but i've only seen a few chains in my climbing career that could possibly do this.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:Question: if a climber chooses to place their own draw higher and therefore on a link joined by other links is there risk of breaking a biner or links by pinching between link and biner?

I think that if you make a conscious effort to place your biner below the link then it should be fine. You could also try clipping the permanent biner to the bolt, hopefully raising the link out of the way of your biner.

El Tigre wrote:Sorry, didn't notice you were from Tennessee. That was quite insensitive of me. Imbecile. Is that better?

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a poor education in grade school. Retarded is an adjective, imbecile is a noun. :\ Boo. Public education at its finest

S.P.L.T

The consent of the FA party or a majority of the local climbing community would be a reasonable prereq for placing a chain on the route. Just because a draw is hanging or a lower draw would be convenient for a single person doesn't make it 'ethical' to go and put a chain at that spot.

Jeremy Hand wrote: doesn't make it 'ethical' .

Ethics: a seven letter word used to modify others behavior to a personally held ideology.

Jonhy Q wrote: Ethics: a SIX letter word used to modify others behavior to a personally held ideology.

+1 That is why I 'emphasized' it.

matt davies wrote: I generally try to stay out of ethics debates, mainly because I have none, but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Neither do people arguing over the ethics of perma-sucks. Me personally, I have french freed to many routes to qualify in a ethics debate. And *gasp* I have even ticked them on my MP ticklist. Now if that does not sound unethical I dunno what does.

I'm going to add fuel to this fire by hanging 50ft slings off every bolt. I'll clip all10 bolts standing on the ground and climb up without having to clip anything but the anchors! Unless. I fall and deck. Way to cheat the system!

Jeremy Hand wrote:S.P.L.T The consent of the FA party or a majority of the local climbing community would be a reasonable prereq for placing a chain on the route. Just because a draw is hanging or a lower draw would be convenient for a single person doesn't make it 'ethical' to go and put a chain at that spot.

Is it the FA party or the "majority of the local climbing community"? I would guess you would say FA first and if they can't be contacted or don't care then the "majority" shall decide. But, how do we decide what the "majority" is? We can't, it's arbitrary, therefore I think my clear rules are quite helpful. Do you deny that a chain is an upgrade?

Cocoapuffs 1000 wrote:I'm going to add fuel to this fire by hanging 50ft slings off every bolt. I'll clip all10 bolts standing on the ground and climb up without having to clip anything but the anchors! Unless. I fall and deck. Way to cheat the system!

You're on the right track, but the thing to do is find a sport route with bolts every 5 ft. Hang "perma-daisy chains (tm)", 60" long of course, off each bolt. Then clip whichever loop floats yer boat.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote: Is it the FA party or the "majority of the local climbing community"? I would guess you would say FA first and if they can't be contacted or don't care then the "majority" shall decide. But, how do we decide what the "majority" is? We can't, it's arbitrary, therefore I think my clear rules are quite helpful. Do you deny that a chain is an upgrade?

Yeah, it is all pretty subjective but I feel like either/or would be sufficient. If you can get ahold of the FA party and ask them their thoughts and garner their support then I feel as if there should be no issue with placing the chains. Also, IF NO PRIOR CONTACT has been made with the FA party and the local majority (if it could be defined) comes to a consensus that a route's safety and experience would be improved with the addition of chains than so be it.

I am not for or against the placing of permadraws or chains in any shape or form. I believe that rock climbing is supposed to be enjoyable and a challenge to persevere through your personal limits in a relatively safe environment (hence why people bolt/use gear).
Any chain 'upgrade' is subjective as well and there will always be a minute minority that disagrees.

FYI my first post was a troll.

Peter, please allow me to lend my professional services.

First, an attempt must be made to contact the FA. It is commonly true in climbing that the FA retains all rights to how a route shall be climbed, this may be disputed by some but is most certainly recognized by the majority.

Second, if the FA is unreachable or indifferent an attempt must be made to contact the person who has placed the extended draw and a compromise should be pursued. Caveat: If the FA later decides they don't accept the compromise between yourself and the one who has placed the extended draw they have the right to change it.

Third, when both of the above options are exhausted you may then change the quickdraw to your preference while considering safety for the average height climber. Please also consider that the "intended hold" for clipping may vary among climbers. I think it's safe to assume that there's also a minimum and maximum length for a permanent draw. 6ft is surely too long and just a carabiner on a hanger is too short, but I will leave that debate for another time.

Regarding chain verses a dog-bone, chain is surely better from a safety standpoint but it's visual impact can be much greater unless it's properly colored to match the rock. Please consider the "Leave no trace" ethos or it's more modern incarnation "Leave as little a trace as possible" whenever operating in the outdoors to remain within acceptable ethical boundaries.

The Climbing Ethicist has spoken.

Climbing Ethicist wrote:Peter, please allow me to lend my professional services. First, an attempt must be made to contact the FA. It is commonly true in climbing that the FA retains all rights to how a route shall be climbed, this may be disputed by some but is most certainly recognized by the majority. Second, if the FA is unreachable or indifferent an attempt must be made to contact the person who has placed the extended draw and a compromise should be pursued. Caveat: If the FA later decides they don't accept the compromise between yourself and the one who has placed the extended draw they have the right to change it. Third, when both of the above options are exhausted you may then change the quickdraw to your preference while considering safety for the average height climber. Please also consider that the "intended hold" for clipping may vary among climbers. I think it's safe to assume that there's also a minimum and maximum length for a permanent draw. 6ft is surely too long and just a carabiner on a hanger is too short, but I will leave that debate for another time. Regarding chain verses a dog-bone, chain is surely better from a safety standpoint but it's visual impact can be much greater unless it's properly colored to match the rock. Please consider the "Leave no trace" ethos or it's more modern incarnation "Leave as little a trace as possible" whenever operating in the outdoors to remain within acceptable ethical boundaries. The Climbing Ethicist has spoken.

Mods, please lock and sticky this thread.

S.P.L.T. Image wrote:The permadraw as described by the OP should be replaced by chain. By adding chain, an upgrade, the upgrader may then determine the length. Question: if a climber chooses to place their own draw higher and therefore on a link joined by other links is there risk of breaking a biner or links by pinching between link and biner?

sure... why not!

Did you know permadraws (cable draws) come in custom lengths? You can get them as long or short as you want.

www.climbtechgear.com