Onsight vs Redpoint Ability

Darren Mabe wrote:said it before and will say it again.. from arnold: onsighting is thinking, redpointing is remembering.

Thanks for the repeat - I musta forgot.

David Sahalie wrote:This is such an informative thread! These hot topics have never been discussed before.

Just because your so awesome it hurts you and everyone around you, doesn't mean the remainder of us couldn't use advice from these guys that have been at it a long time and know wtf they are talking about.

David - stop reading the active forum and focus on reading the archived stuff. That will solve the petty irritant of you having to suffer through re-hashed topics being discussed anew.

As for the majority of us readers, we don't mind discussing topics that have been discussed before.

Onsight and red point is pretty much the same for me. Yeah, maybe I don't try hard enough.....I don't know. The reality is that I rarely ever go back and do a route twice, except for a few gems here and there.
Plus when it comes to awful, it doesn't really matter how much you work it, it is still awful, so I guess the same grunting and slithering goes on and you either get it or not.

Tony B wrote: Or maybe we get bored doing the same thing twice...

Yeah, Tony has me pegged. My hardest onsights are within 1-2 letter grades of my hardest redpoints. I think that the largest number of burns that I have put into sending something is around 7-10, so that probably doesn't really count as a project.

However I would also agree with Darren's statement that part of the reason I don't have a bigger separation between my onsight and redpoint numbers is because I am not trying to send harder routes. Lazy monkey.

Tony B wrote: OK... 'doing the same thing for weeks.' ... Better? In all seriousness, I've redpointed a climb or two in my life, but I'd generally rather go do something I have not tried.

This makes me want to move to boulder, RRG or quit my job and just travel and climb at different crags. I don't see how a motivated climber who gets out alot doesn't climb out there local crags relatively quickly. It must be nice for those that have so much rock around that they can simply OS or quick redpoint continually without running out of quality routes at areas you can find a partner for.

DisturbingThePeace wrote: This makes me want to move to boulder, RRG or quit my job and just travel and climb at different crags. I don't see how a motivated climber who gets out alot doesn't climb out there local crags relatively quickly. It must be nice for those that have so much rock around that they can simply OS or quick redpoint continually without running out of quality routes at areas you can find a partner for.

Move to a region away from the mountains for a while and you will be cured of your heartbreak over the lack of climbing in NM. Trust me, NM was the first place I lived after leaving Wisconsin and I always felt like I was in heaven down there. Even though I live in CA now with ample opportunity to go 'onsight' climbing to my heart's desire, I still think NM is a great place to live.

Besides, if you move to Boulder you will become a Boulderite and everyone will think less of you!!! (joking....well, mostly)

DisturbingThePeace wrote: This makes me want to move to boulder, RRG or quit my job and just travel and climb at different crags. I don't see how a motivated climber who gets out alot doesn't climb out there local crags relatively quickly. It must be nice for those that have so much rock around that they can simply OS or quick redpoint continually without running out of quality routes at areas you can find a partner for.

"without running out of quality routes"
Well, there is the crux. I've climbed on the verge of 1000 routes each in Eldo and Bocan by now, and I wager well over 1/2 of that in the flatirons... plus hundreds each at Lumpy, the Splatte, IC, CCC, St Vrain, etc... And while I occasionally repeat routes, I don't project anything.
But the think you missed is that I never claimed that they were all quality. I find "new" more compelling than "solid" because the former is more interesting to me.
In summary, I think you also have to be tolerant of some 0* climbing. Oh, and "get off the grid" besides. I have probably 200 FA's. That's not a lot compared to sport climbing developers, but it has sure added some climbing days.

Tony B wrote: "without running out of quality routes" Well, there is the crux. I've climbed on the verge of 1000 routes each in Eldo and Bocan by now, and I wager well over 1/2 of that in the flatirons... plus hundreds each at Lumpy, the Splatte, IC, CCC, St Vrain, etc... And while I occasionally repeat routes, I don't project anything. But the think you missed is that I never claimed that they were all quality. I find "new" more compelling than "solid" because the former is more interesting to me. In summary, I think you also have to be tolerant of some 0* climbing. Oh, and "get off the grid" besides. I have probably 200 FA's. That's not a lot compared to sport climbing developers, but it has sure added some climbing days.

So that's ~3500 routes? I don't think there are too many areas in the US with that concentration of routes within a 4hr drive, hence the advantage of the boulder area. Now for quality (with bad weather) the best might be the Southeast area to get that many routes. I too will climb every route at a crag, but definitly generally find the quality ones more enjoyable. I think many people are driven into projecting harder and harder routes because they have completed the routes within their grade range. I prefer climbs within the hard for me onsight range to the 2-5 redpoint burns grade. Because I guess I like quick accomplishment, I admire the people that can send an entire season working a single route. I would become way to frustrated working something that hard for me.

Not ragging on NM, I only wish there was some sweet overhanging limestone crag with around 2000 routes within 2 hrs of ABQ.

Also to answer the original question, 3 grades difference between my best OS to best Redpoint, and 3 grades difference between my standard OS ~50% chance, and standard redpoint within 5 goes.

djkyote wrote: not only do we have limited climbing, we have the forest service shutting down some of the difficult climbing we do have: mountainproject.com/v/cryst… think the forest service supports recreational climbing? think again.

Looks like interesting climbing. But, I don't know, man. If that is an ancient burial site, you don't want to be messing with it. Ever see Poltergeist?

You don't want to be developing on top of a grave yard.

I OS'd ZeeTree this July in the Meadows, so logically I will work on RP'ing Dike Route soon. I'll be sure to rap in and pre-place all my draws to help with the send.

Crag Dweller wrote: Looks like interesting climbing. But, I don't know, man. If that is an ancient burial site, you don't want to be messing with it. Ever see Poltergeist? You don't want to be developing on top of a grave yard.

My understanding is that it was never proven to be a burial site. When the excavation was done in the 1930's there wasn't any evidence found that it was a burial site. There was some looters who clamed that they had taken a corpse from the cave. (Again this is all my understanding of it). Now they are determining whether the soot on the roof is an archeological artifact.

It sucks there was one more route that I really wanted to get there. Now the best steep climbing around ABQ is closed.

Shirtless Mike wrote: OK... 'doing the same thing for weeks.' ... Better? In all seriousness, I've redpointed a climb or two in my life, but I'd generally rather go do something I have not tried. This makes me want to move to boulder, RRG or quit my job and just travel and climb at different crags. I don't see how a motivated climber who gets out alot doesn't climb out there local crags relatively quickly. It must be nice for those that have so much rock around that they can simply OS or quick redpoint continually without running out of quality routes at areas you can find a partner for.

RRG is like this for sure. You could spend 10 years and never touch the same route twice. Call us lucky, cause we are. 

Based on a statistical analyses of a sample of 18,000 climbers, it seems that the difference between maximum onsight and redpoint performance is about 2 to 4 grades wide (e.g. difference between 5.12a and 5.13a would constitute a four grade point gap), see the graph below for a visualization of the results. The full analyses can be found here: climbstat.blogspot.com/2020…