Using pins (leaving them fixed) instead of bolts on free routes.

CJC wrote: strange world you're living in man

I guess I failed at articulating that one... though yes my life does get strange at times. Usually late night after concerts though...

This issue of pins being okay but bolts are bad is typical CT bullshit. It's a mentality that well we used pins so they are fine but those bolts you youngsters wanna use are EVIL.

Caleb Padgett wrote:I think bolts are often much better than fixed pins. I do use pins when establishing new routes here in Zion. I would much rather slam a pin in real quick if I find myself runout and without good pro. I usually remove the pins on rappell or have the cleaner remove them and then place a protection bolt later. This allows one to be more deliberate about the drilling process and place them in spots with good clipping stances with reasonable distance from natural pro.

not to mention pitons makes things go free! especially in sandstone!
EDIT: borderline chipping/manufacturing (tongue in cheek)

Morgan Patterson wrote: "It's okay to alter the rock with my pins cause that's what I use but it's not okay for you to alter the rock with that bolt because it's not what I used growing up."

Is that what I said? Thanks for clarifying. Don't assume you know what I meant from my post, because you don't.

My point was that logic does not matter to the individuals who chop bolts at the Forks, or any other mainly traditional climbing area. In their view it's been a certain way in the past, and will continue to be that way in the future, they don't care about your opinion.

Mick S wrote: Is that what I said? Thanks for clarifying. Don't assume you know what I meant from my post, because you don't. My point was that logic does not matter to the individuals who chop bolts at the Forks, or any other mainly traditional climbing area. In their view it's been a certain way in the past, and will continue to be that way in the future, they don't care about your opinion.

whoa killah! I wasn't trying to say at all that's what you said or whatever I was just presenting my opinion of what this whole thing sounded like... very similar to CT. Pins okay but bolts are bad... it's a fucked up conception to begin with that's all. no foul bud!

Mick S wrote: Is that what I said? Thanks for clarifying. Don't assume you know what I meant from my post, because you don't. My point was that logic does not matter to the individuals who chop bolts at the Forks, or any other mainly traditional climbing area. In their view it's been a certain way in the past, and will continue to be that way in the future, they don't care about your opinion.

You sound very misunderestimated.

Colonel Mustard wrote: You sound very misunderestimated.

Isn't that a word that Bush made up one day when he forgot the English language? Lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w65CSu6Cc4A

Morgan Patterson wrote: Isn't that a word that Bush made up one day when he forgot the English language? Lol!

Durp! It seemed appropriate.

Pins and bolts are not the same. Pins fit in natural cracks without drilling. FIXED pins are less damaging than bolts since they can be easily replaced or removed usually without much evidence that they were ever there. Pins are often much better pro than bolts when placed well. The problem with bolts is that you can't easily tell if they are good. I know of more falls as the result of bad bolts than pins. Usually a bad pin is obvious and can be fixed with a few taps. Unfortunately few free climbers even own a hammer. I remember Gary Neptune complaining about that in the 80's. ; )

No bolts at the Forks is good policy with land managers too. If you aren't man enough to do the route without bolts don't do it. If you want to drill there are plenty of other areas where it is accepted. Fixed pins should be used sparingly too. You could hammer a line of knifeblades up a seam and it would be as ugly as a line of bolts.

David Sahalie wrote:pins are never better because they take the place that a cam could go. i understand their application for aid climbing in extremely small cracks, but they have no place in free climbing. many lines go free now because they have been aided on pins. if you think you are having a negative impact by placing a bolt, think about the fact that you are chipping for free climbers by placing a pin.

i really hate when someone fixes a bong in a perfectly good #3 camalot placement. anyway, when i'm getting psyched up for a huge whipper i much prefer a grey c3 to some shitty LA driven in all the way to the eye. who leaves this garbage on routes? obviously they need to take a NOLS class or something.

CJD wrote:Pins and bolts are not the same. Pins fit in natural cracks without drilling. FIXED pins are less damaging than bolts since they can be easily replaced or removed usually without much evidence that they were ever there. Pins are often much better pro than bolts when placed well. The problem with bolts is that you can't easily tell if they are good. I know of more falls as the result of bad bolts than pins. Usually a bad pin is obvious and can be fixed with a few taps. Unfortunately few free climbers even own a hammer. I remember Gary Neptune complaining about that in the 80's. ; ) No bolts at the Forks is good policy with land managers too. If you aren't man enough to do the route without bolts don't do it. If you want to drill there are plenty of other areas where it is accepted. Fixed pins should be used sparingly too. You could hammer a line of knifeblades up a seam and it would be as ugly as a line of bolts.

Implying fixed pins are better pro than a well-placed bolt is ludicrous. Also, since when have fixed pins been easy to inspect?

I'm really glad that you, and every other person who trots this tired line out on mp from time to time, dont climb here either. I do like road tripping to Colorado and many other places tho.

The pin that EFR's question brings to mind is not at the forks but the overlook- the one on isaiah. Many of us have clipped it. Good question tho as to why it is there. I'm not complaining, I'm happy to clip it. I'm just curious b/c none of us would argue that line is remotely unprotectable.

CJD wrote:Pins and bolts are not the same.

Are you sure?

CJD wrote:Pins fit in natural cracks without drilling.

Go on...

CJD wrote: FIXED pins are less damaging than bolts since they can be easily replaced or removed usually without much evidence that they were ever there.

I call bs here. I have patched bolt holes that took me several minutes to find after I went back and checked on the 'patch' I used. I haul base dirt up and press it into 'quick steel' after I mash it into the bolt hole. I've never had one stand out. Here's a couple I found in a quick search here on mp that look like they were patched using a similar method:
Patched bolt hole on Red Shoes next to natural gear. One of many examples. Photo: George Smith
New bolt and patched hole: I failed to completely scrub off the X I marked the old bolt with.

However, I have no clue how you would patch something like this:
Bad pin scars and a bail bolt on this unknown. It is a travesty that somebody practiced their nailing on this smooth seam which leads to nowhere. It would be good for somebody to carry a tall ladder up there and remove the bolt and patch the hole.

CDJ: "Pins are often much better pro than bolts when placed well."
What kind of bolts have you been climbing on??

CDJ: " The problem with bolts is that you can't easily tell if they are good. I know of more falls as the result of bad bolts than pins. Usually a bad pin is obvious and can be fixed with a few taps. Unfortunately few free climbers even own a hammer. I remember Gary Neptune complaining about that in the 80's. ; )"
I remember having to tap pins back in all over Garden of the Gods in the early 90's. That was just part of the game. I just seems that 20 years later, we have other options.. shouldn't we be taking advantage of them?

CDJ: "No bolts at the Forks is good policy with land managers too. If you aren't man enough to do the route without bolts don't do it. If you want to drill there are plenty of other areas where it is accepted. Fixed pins should be used sparingly too. You could hammer a line of knifeblades up a seam and it would be as ugly as a line of bolts. "

If this is an agreement with land managers then that's an entirely different situation from that of local ethics or tradition. If this is an established guideline of the area, I would suggest devising an effective method of disseminating this information as wide as possible.

Peeps are road tripping more than ever before. Directions, ratings, beta galore, etc are at our fingertips. Mp and a few other resources online has greyed the effectiveness of the 'locals' definition more than ever before. Signs posted strategically on trails leading into the area could be used to educate folks on what is allowed there. IMO, something along these lines would be vastly more effective than telling folks not to climb something if they're not "man enough to do it" without bolts. That tone of banter just fuels rebellious tendencies and even creates as much where none may have even been before.

ADMINS:
FYI, it seems that the <quote.. markers do not work after you post an image in your post. Is this a known bug?

Hey Daryl,

I totally agree that bolt holes can be covered over well. An even better alternative, I think, is to be able to re-use the existing hole. Here there might be some advantage of a pin (or sleeve bolt) vs a wedge bolt.

Very true Geir.. good point.

+1 to Daryl's response, sound, logical...

If you are on a ground up FA of a lead I'd say pounding a pin is perfectly reasonable but should be avoided on sound reasoning discussed in previous posts, longevity, rock damage, etc.

Personally I try and skip any protection I didn't personally place besides while sport climbing of course and some bolted anchors. While climbing i would rather not rely on others effort but begrudegenly have to from time to time. I'm out there to challenge myself and in this day and age we have the technology to hopefully out do our past with a cleaner style while at the same time respecting our past by facing the same challenges, albeit with some enhanced gear on our side.

The point being that pins are extremely similar to bolts and if bolts aren't allowed neither should pins with notable exception of leading an FA ground up. That exception also applying to drilling from a stance.

BTW Ball Nuts might fit where fixed pins once were.

Having pins on a route makes sense to me... why you ask? Because that was the way the route was established. when the FAist was leading that line he clearly felt that section of climbing needed more pro then clean protection allowed for, so he sat there awkwardly banging a pin home. After the elapsed time the FAist had the pleasure or displeasure of climbing above the pin he worked so hard for. sharing in this experience is the reason some of us climb!

and as far as 20 years down the line goes,

fixed pro eval flow chart

As far as pin scars go they come from placing and removing a pin many times, the point of leaving a pin in place is to prevent this damage.

I definitely like to see pins used over bolts where possible, with clean gear being the first choice obviously. Pins are easy to replace, and they don't quite so "murder the impossible" since you do need a natural seam or something to hammer them in, unlike bolts which can just be drilled wherever. And as a couple people have pointed out, their damage to the rock is minimal if they are used sparingly as fixed protection and not constantly hammered in and out as on popular "nailing" routes.

Of course it all depends on where you're climbing since every place is different, and that's the way it should be, since variety is the spice of life.

And this is what keeps me coming back. Logic that makes me challenge my own viewpoints and consider other lines of reasoning.

Hilarious flowchart Mike. Did you just put that together?