Using pins (leaving them fixed) instead of bolts on free routes.

Recently I saw that fixed pins were used at the forks on a free route. I just thought it was weird. It seems it is okay to use pins at the Forks but not bolts? Is it just me or does this seem like a double standard? I would rather see bolts than some pin I will not be able to trust in a few years.

What do you locals think.

I think that if a bolt is used where a pin could work, it would be nice if the bolt is replaceable.

Having replaced a few pins and bolts lately I really appreciate it when we are able to pull the old piece cleanly and re-use the old hole.

I respect the fact that botls are more easily replaced. I'm new to the state so I dont konw the ethics at the forks. If going for ground up (yes I know you rap in) ethics, pins are much easier to place while leading. In my experience, a bolt hand drilled on lead is accepted as 'traditional.' I'm not trying to stir the pot here, I'm very interested in the opinions of the local climbing community.
Best,
Taylor

never placed a bolt, but nothing beats the higher and higher pingings of a solid pin getting hammered in.

David Sahalie wrote:Pins are great, in the same way swami belts are hemp ropes are great. Way to go AZ, keep moving the sport into the future

It's not a statewide practice.

All sorts of pins in Colorado. I never seam to have a problem using a good one for pro. I have even fallen and seen others fall onto pins with no problems. I say keep it old school if that's how it was put up.

Some places pins work better, others bolts work better. Let the rock choose, looking for blanket axioms is a sign of lack of diverse experience.

Since when did they start making knifeblade size cams? Eldo is a prime example of a place where pins have been used as good protection instead of bolts where gear could not be placed and the feature can't be used to climb but only as protection.

Depends on the route, the rock, and the ethics of the local community.

For me it depends. There are some on Ponsi Rosa which make total sense. The one on AuH2O was nice to clip, but in reality with about 3 more feet of climbing, perfectly good gear old be placed.

I can understand you sentiment, fixed gear is fixed gear. For me a few strategic rap bolts to take the stress away from the trees, make more sense, whereas keep the climbs that they could be placed on spicy.

There are still projects yet to go. One is on Davidsons Wall and will go with slider nuts, C3's ( narrow heads count) and small nuts...no bolts or pitons necessary. Some will probably be head points, but they will go by someone..

Back in the 80's we used to beat ground down baby angles into 3/8th inch holes. We thought this looked better. These things were really bomber and some still are. Others however come out pretty easily. Maybe if I hand drill a hole in a seam and beat a pin into it is acceptable. Just trying to figure out what I can and cannot do at the Forks.

My thing is that if you are going to place fixed gear it should be as safe for the guy on the 6000th ascent as the first otherwise it isn't the same. I ripped a pin once in Tuolumne that was probably bomber for the guy who put it in but I tweaked an ankle. So I just think that if the folks at the forks are going to accept fixed gear then it should be as bomber in 20 years (like a bolt) as the day it was put in.

I am not trying to start a shit storm or a witch hunt just trying to figure out the rules before I proceed. Who is the chief rule maker up there anyway? Davidson, Grossman, Baxter, Toula,...

I haven't pulled a pin in a fall yet but have run across a couple that I have pulled out with my hand. I have also replaced many that came out with just a few hammer taps.

I don't have a problem with people using pins on FAs so long as they are open to replacing them when they become loose or old. If the route is really popular and the FA is cool with it, maybe that replacement is a bolt. Or maybe the pin scar can be protected with clean gear.

Like I mentioned earlier, though, if a bolt is going to be used instead of a pin on an FA it would be a plus if the bolt is a replaceable one.

Colin Cox wrote:...unless you're Australian.

Good one.

i think pins destroy a route more than bolts.

I think folks are ridiculous... if bolts are banned so too should pins. It's all fixed gear which alters the rock.

Perhaps ... but it's all about history and tradition, like it or not.

I didn't know about the pins. If fixed gear isn't tolerated to the extent that people are still rapping off the shrubbery at the Forks, having pins in situ is absolutely ridiculous and selfish. Why not hammer some nuts in place or the like for your fixed gear routes?

Be consistent and get rid of the rock scarring pins, or allow bolts.

There is irony, since the White Wall has bolts. They make sense since the rock quality quickly becomes bad beyond where the routes in question end.

So bolting bad rock to force a route where one will not naturally go = ok but adding anchors to preserve vegetation = bad?

I realize the op was to start dialog regarding the bolt vs. pin situation but I just can't see the logic in trampling vegetation, dirt, contributing to erosion, etc at all when anchors could be installed. What, exactly, is being preserved by not placing fixed anchors? Perhaps what is perceived as tradition was just lack of resources by the area pioneers(?).

I get that folks are discouraging top roping for the sake of preserving the upper shelf but, like it or not, peeps are going to build tr rigs; it's just how it is. I don't think any amount of soapboxing will encourage folks to take the sharp end up things they don't feel they're ready for.

Sorry for drifting your thread a bit Eric. Good on you for bringing this to a discussion before taking any action up there.

And no, I'm not a local... just someone trying to add food for thought, not fuel for fire.

I completely agree Daryl.

I'm also trying to imagine a scenario where a fixed pin is better than a bolt, and I'm having a hard time coming up with one.

I think bolts are often much better than fixed pins.
I do use pins when establishing new routes here in Zion. I would much rather slam a pin in real quick if I find myself runout and without good pro. I usually remove the pins on rappell or have the cleaner remove them and then place a protection bolt later. This allows one to be more deliberate about the drilling process and place them in spots with good clipping stances with reasonable distance from natural pro.

Mick S wrote:Perhaps ... but it's all about history and tradition, like it or not.

sounds a lot like the typical issue/debate that arises of older folks telling the younger folks that what they did is okay but somehow what the younger kids are/were doing is not okay...

"It's okay to alter the rock with my pins cause that's what I use but it's not okay for you to alter the rock with that bolt because it's not what I used growing up."