Do you speak up when seeing someone making mistakes?

Larry S wrote:I always watch what's going on around me. If i see minor mistakes, i'll try and judge the risk, attitude and experience and politely and humbly speak up. Polite and Humble are important. But i have had occasions where talk was not enough or not quick enough and intervention has been needed. Two winters ago, i was at the local gym. A guy who i don't know personally but recognize as an experienced climber, probably been climbing since i was born, is there w/ a woman i've never seen before. They were climbing for a while, doing all top rope stuff as this appears to be her first time. My buddy is just about to lead something a few routes over from them, i'm gettin ready to belay. She's belaying him and he's very near the top of the route, about to lower off. I just glance over and something is NOT RIGHT w/ her belay, but i can't tell exactly what from this distance... I ran over... My eyes probably glazed over, and i just said "something's not right" in a tone of sheer panic, grabbed the ropes and took over belaying him off of her harness. I don't know how, but somehow she managed to go thru all the motions of taking in rope, never letting her hand off the brake (what she thought was the brake), etc... without actually pulling anything thru the device. It was threaded correctly, she was just miming belaying on the climbers side only. I hand over hand pulled the brake strand out of her ATC as fast as I could and then helped lower the guy to the ground. So far as the climber new, the rope was going tight and everything was fine... I couple seconds later he could have decked from the top.

Wow...WTF!

When I take out new climbers I bring along an experienced belayer. I let the new climbers top rope, but save the lead belaying till after both they and I feel comfortable with the top rope process. Quite often the TR belay teaching will happen in the gym with alot of friction on easy routes. You should never teach someone to belay AND lead belay at the same time.

Unless you hate yourself.

Scott McMahon wrote: Wow...WTF! When I take out new climbers I bring along an experienced belayer. I let the new climbers top rope, but save the lead belaying till after both they and I feel comfortable with the top rope process. Quite often the TR belay teaching will happen in the gym with alot of friction on easy routes. You should never teach someone to belay AND lead belay at the same time. Unless you hate yourself.

You do realize in the story you quoted they were top roping? Where did the "lead belaying" tangent come from?

If it is something not best practice but won't hurt someone, like a webbing triangle on 2 bolt TR anchor, saying something would be for your ego, leave it alone.

If it a situation where someone could get hurt, why wouldn't you say something? Again for your ego.

I have spent the night in the wilderness with someone with crushed vertebrae and shattered wrist. I have heard bones snapping and heads hitting rock from a hundred foot fall. Then held this guys leg in place till rescue got there. He was barely alive. Both climbers were experienced but with inexperienced belayers. Both incidents may have been preventable as many accidents are.

Speak up. Even if it is not well received it was heard. You may have prevented an accident if not that day maybe a future one.

Scott McMahon wrote:It's a really tough decision to make really, but every time I go out I see someone put themselves in perilious positions. - The girl back clipping all the way up - Her belayer first time belaying with a gri-gri...what a scream when the leader went down 5 feet quickly. - The guy I wanted to give route beta to when he skipped the 3rd bolt because he couldn't clip. Ground fall territory. - The guy on the Edge of Time clipped in through both ends of the draw while he hung on the first bolt for an hour. 9+ route and his belayer was belaying wrong. Oh and he had no gear for the bolt runout. - The many new belayers consistently taking their hand of the brake strand while lead belaying. - A school teaching brand new climbers to single line rap over a roof by bunching their legs up instead of legs out, butt down. Can you say face smash? Did I say something in every instance. No and truthfully when I see this crap going down, I bail. I don't want to be around to watch somebody take a ground fall. And these are just a few things off the top of my head. I'm not perfect for sure, but I do my best to make sure I'm taking as many precautions as I can. My opinion is that the gyms have alot to do with these bad practices, especially bad belaying and backclipping. People climb in "safe" environment, and then hit the REI sale for a new rope and draws. Unfortunently the logistics of climbing don't always come naturally and require some amount of study and practice. I try to always take advice if someone knows a better, more effecient or safer way of doing things. Climbing is a progression.

Have you ever thought you should mind your own damn business? I climb a lot, and I haven't seen nearly what you describe here. Or maybe your a noob babysitter and need to climb somewhere else.

Randy W. wrote: Have you ever thought you should mind your own damn business? I climb a lot, and I haven't seen nearly what you describe here. Or maybe your a noob babysitter and need to climb somewhere else.

I gotta agree with you. As someone else pointed out alot of n00bs try to make themselves not feel like n00bs by pointing out every small detail that someone else is doing wrong.

My one friend did this and it used to drive me nuts. He had been climbing less than a year and was constantly pointing out to people that they were belaying with their grigri wrong, people who had climbed years longer than him...

pfwein wrote: I always thought several meant more than one, although exactly two would be an uncommon usage. I looked at a dictionary: more than one and more than two are both listed. See merriam-webster.com/diction… ("more than one" is listed before "more than two"). So I'm not so sure about the English lesson in this story, but I've no doubt the actual climbing advice was spot on and the guy should have taken it.

More than one is 2 or more and I suppose that it is POSSIBLE he'd been climbing trad since he was 7...
But I doubt it.
English lesson or not, I think the guy was very bad at math or was arrogant. OR maybe some 3rd thing I don't understand... But expecting recognition for more than your achievements, in psychological terms, is the very definition of arrogance.

RockyMtnTed wrote: I gotta agree with you. As someone else pointed out alot of n00bs try to make themselves not feel like n00bs by pointing out every small detail that someone else is doing wrong. My one friend did this and it used to drive me nuts. He had been climbing less than a year and was constantly pointing out to people that they were belaying with their grigri wrong, people who had climbed years longer than him...

What does it matter how long someone has been climbing? If someone is doing something that may result in him or his partner getting killed, why wouldn't you offer up information that might prevent that?

RockyMtnTed wrote: You do realize in the story you quoted they were top roping? Where did the "lead belaying" tangent come from?

Nope missed that part, however everthing I said still stands.

Thanks for the "catch". Haha!

Randy W. wrote: Have you ever thought you should mind your own damn business? I climb a lot, and I haven't seen nearly what you describe here. Or maybe your a noob babysitter and need to climb somewhere else.

1) I said usually I don't say anything and I just leave. But you sound like the type of person who would let someone get hit by a truck because they didn't see it coming. Sorry, I'd want someone to warn me if I backclipped every draw I put in.

2) So what you haven't seen any of that? Guess what? This was all in the past month. What does that have to do with anything? You sound like your oblivious. But weren't you just complaining about the people in Boulder Canyon? At least I make friends with the people climbing around me.

3) I pretty much climb where ever I want to. I get there early and when this stuff happens, I leave. Seeing something happen right next to you doesn't mean I'm not minding my own business.

But mostly I try to climb where people like you aren't.

Crag Dweller wrote: What does it matter how long someone has been climbing? If someone is doing something that may result in him or his partner getting killed, why wouldn't you offer up information that might prevent that?

Youre missing my point crag dweller, that one went right over your head!

Nothing wrong with pointing out something that is clearly dangerous but when you are a beginner climber who has only been out there for 2 months telling someone on a 5.12 that they are holding their grigri wrong is a little unnecessary... Has nothing to do with grades, more so experience level. Its like a first day skier on a green run coming up to me on a double black diamond and saying I am skiing too fast or my feet are too far apart, what the hell do they know?

RockyMtnTed wrote: Youre missing my point crag dweller, that one went right over your head! Nothing wrong with pointing out something that is clearly dangerous but when you are a beginner climber who has only been out there for 2 months telling someone on a 5.12 that they are holding their grigri wrong is a little unnecessary... Has nothing to do with grades, more so experience level. Its like a first day skier on a green run coming up to me on a double black diamond and saying I am skiing too fast or my feet are too far apart, what the hell do they know?

I think you are missing the point. If said "pro 5.12 climber" is belaying wrong and could possibly injure someone, and mister 5.5 leader been climbing 2 months, notices he should correct him. experience does not matter sometimes.

Have you been checking out the climbing death threads? Those are experienced people that something went wrong and they fell and died. You are going to end up hurt if you keep up that attitude of experience makes right, Mister rockymtn...

J Hazard wrote: I think you are missing the point. If said "pro 5.12 climber" is belaying wrong and could possibly injure someone, and mister 5.5 leader been climbing 2 months, notices he should correct him. experience does not matter sometimes. Have you been checking out the climbing death threads? Those are experienced people that something went wrong and they fell and died. You are going to end up hurt if you keep up that attitude of experience makes right, Mister rockymtn...

Okay my point...

Why would a "mister pro 5.12 climber" need advice on how to belay from someone that has been doing it for 2 months? I am assuming the "5.12 pro" has been doing it for years and years, why does he need advice from a n00b.... Sure if there is an obvious danger like rockfall he doesnt see or belay biner unlocked then speak up but critiquing his form belaying is going a little far in my opinion and thats what I originally was saying. You really disagree with that?

Would you take advice from a 15 year old girl with her temps to slow down because she KNOWS that 75mph on the highway is excessive and you WILL die regardless of conditions??

Jake Jones wrote:Why would a guy that's descended off multipitch routes hundreds or thousands of times rap off the end of his rope? I guess the noob that sees that he can't see the ends of the rope and hasn't tied knots in the ends should just keep his mouth shut.

Uhhh like I said twice now... something obviously dangerous like that then of course speak up. Minor differences in belay technique is NOT the same thing. At all.

You guys seem to love to pick apart peoples words for the smallest technicality and argue with them about it. I'm off to go for a bike ride, Id suggest doing something productive as well.

I often find myself in the circumstance of letting someone know they're doing something that could get them hurt. I take a lot of new climbers to new climber areas to do new climber type climbs.

I find the best way is to say, "hey, it might be better if (insert action to prevent imminent demise). When you say someone is doing something wrong it immediately makes people defensive so don't present it that way. If you present it as something where they can get a benefit or make their lives easier they're more apt to listen. Although I've always wondered what it would be like to walk up to someone and say, "hey dumbass, want me to show you the right way to do that so you don't kill your partner?"

I always laugh when people tell me how hard they climb or how old they are. Gravity doesn't give a shit and the ground hurts the same. Anyone can make a mistake, doesn't necessarily mean they deserve to die because of it. Continued insistence on being an idiot...that's another story.

Anyone can learn something from someone else, regardless of experience. Sometime someone without experience may have a better solution because they aren't confined by the thought processes that being experienced at something boxes you into.

Scott McMahon wrote: 1) I said usually I don't say anything and I just leave. But you sound like the type of person who would let someone get hit by a truck because they didn't see it coming. Sorry, I'd want someone to warn me if I backclipped every draw I put in. 2) So what you haven't seen any of that? Guess what? This was all in the past month. What does that have to do with anything? You sound like your oblivious. But weren't you just complaining about the people in Boulder Canyon? At least I make friends with the people climbing around me. 3) I pretty much climb where ever I want to. I get there early and when this stuff happens, I leave. Seeing something happen right next to you doesn't mean I'm not minding my own business. But mostly I try to climb where people like you aren't.

Pretty defensive there Hoss! Well since you climb in BoCan with all the other assplugs you definately won't see me around. I climb where people aren't, it's called adventure.

Your defensive response implies you think you know more than you actually do. I have seen shit hit the fan, I have personally shit and hit the fan. I have given and recieved advice early and often. I never act like a dick when someone points something out, and if I see something, I usually say... "hey, I saw you do that differently than I do. I learned to do it this way. Is there a reason to do it your way?" See that way, I let the student become the teacher. You learn a lot when you teach others (as you obviously know). If they can't explain, I say... "shit... I don't know everything, but this works for me and it seems safe." Sometimes you can learn things from other people.

Sometimes you need to know when to mind your own damn business, too.

Randy W. wrote: Pretty defensive there Hoss! Well since you climb in BoCan with all the other assplugs you definately won't see me around. I climb where people aren't, it's called adventure. Your defensive response implies you think you know more than you actually do. I have seen shit hit the fan, I have personally shit and hit the fan. I have given and recieved advice early and often. I never act like a dick when someone points something out, and if I see something, I usually say... "hey, I saw you do that differently than I do. I learned to do it this way. Is there a reason to do it your way?" See that way, I let the student become the teacher. You learn a lot when you teach others (as you obviously know). If they can't explain, I say... "shit... I don't know everything, but this works for me and it seems safe." Sometimes you can learn things from other people. Sometimes you need to know when to mind your own damn business, too.

My defensive respose is directly due to our dickish post, which apparently has zero relation to what you just said.

Do you mind your own business or do you "give and recieve advice early and often"? You've been deep in the shit, but haven't seen any of the common mistakes I've mentioned? I'm a noob babysitter and you talk about teaching others?

Honestly I'm not getting much out of your contradicting ramblings.

Scott McMahon wrote: My defensive respose is directly due to our dickish post, which apparently has zero relation to what you just said. This leads me to conclude that you spew things out of your mouth prior to your brain being able to sort them out. Do you mind your own business or do you "give and recieve advice early and often"? You been deep in the shit, but haven't seen any of the common mistakes I've mentioned? Honestly I'm not getting much out of your contradicting ramblings.

Keyboard diareaha (sp?) it hits all of us at times.

I can't see any good reason not to intervene if someone's life is in danger. If you're not a jerk about it, people tend to be receptive. I've pointed things out to people many times and the reaction almost always falls into one of two categories:

1) "Oh, shit! Thanks!"
2) "What do you mean?" (I then explain it)

One notable exception was when I was belaying Jim Erickson at the local gym and pointed out that he back-clipped the first draw. He ignored me. I guess a guy with dozens of free-solo FA's probably wasn't too worried about falling on a 5.9. Fair enough!

So I guess the short answer is: everyone has their own opinion!

I guess thinking back on it, when I saw her backclip the first bolt (second bolt on the route), I didnt say anything. But when the second bolt (third from the ground) was also backclipped I felt the need to point it out. Because - like many of you have stated - it seemed dangerous...

I guess maybe another way to say it is - maybe the first one was a simple mistake and she would have continued on clipping properly. But when 3 bolts have been clipped and 2 were backclipped - that tells me maybe she didnt understand. As important is the fact that her belayer also didnt notice? These were backclipped close to the ground and my thinking is he should have noticed...