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Original Post
johnnyrig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 105

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Josh Kornish · · Whitefish, MT · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 800

definitely strong enough. Even without the gate's support it would still give you ~7 or 8kn just as it states on the stamp.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

probably ... but personally i wouldnt bother with it ...

whats a cheap biner these days ??? ... 5$ ???

even less used

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

It is fine for a bail biner, as others said, even without the gate you are still looking at a minimal of 6kN. Lowering off a biner is unlikely to exceed 2 kN, let alone 6+. Furthermore, if you are doing it right, when bailing off a sport route you should be using your GriGri or similar device to make the lowering redundant, so if it does blow, you dont deck.

Matt Hasenohr · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 15
Jake Jones wrote:How do you use a GriGri to make lowering off one biner halfway up a route on one bolt redundant?
+1
David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410

Throw it away. Biners are so cheap. Sure it would hold your weight for rapping off of, but then what happens when the next guy comes along? You know it is a broken biner that you wouldn't want to fall on, so don't leave a ticking time bomb for someone that doesn't inspect it closely before using it on a route.

Sure you could argue that he should inspect everything he find on a route before using it. But why create that potential problem in the first place?

And what happens when your partner leads a long pitch on your rack, and ends up using placing the last nut in the anchor and just uses the racking biner for the anchor? Are you going to remember to tell all your partners, "some of my biners are just for looks, not for falling on, good luck!"

Just throw it away.

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
David Appelhans wrote:but then what happens when the next guy comes along?
If you happen upon a leaver 'biner and use it in a situation where it's possibly going to get loaded at 5+ kN then that's your bad. I definitely wouldn't hesitate to keep my nuts racked on that particular 'biner and use it as a bail 'biner next time you need it.

Don't let the potential stupid actions of other climbers affect your behavior.
randy88fj62 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 291

You have a damaged carabiner and you're contemplating using it as a bail biner? Please retire it from life safety and I'll send you a bd non-locking oval for $3 shipped.

Why take a chance on something that can easily be replaced.

I've got a better offer: Send me the damaged biner and an envelope with return postage paid and I'll give you two biners for free.

David Appelhans · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 410
Marc H wrote: If you happen upon a leaver 'biner and use it in a situation where it's possibly going to get loaded at 5+ kN then that's your bad. I definitely wouldn't hesitate to keep my nuts racked on that particular 'biner and use it as a bail 'biner next time you need it. Don't let the potential stupid actions of other climbers affect your behavior.
Fair enough about a bail biner you find on a route, but did you read the rest of what I wrote? I think it is a terrible idea to mix in non-full strength gear with lead stength life essential gear that looks identical. Your partners use your gear too and they are going to presume that a that full size climbing biner on your rack will do what it was designed to do. They aren't going to know that some of your biners are real, and some are just for looks (rapping).

Would you climb with slings that you tied with water knots and a couple of slings you tied with a square knot, because they would be fine for rappelling?

In my opinion a bail biner should be a cheap, crappy, but fully functioning biner.
Khoi · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 45

It is visible to the naked eye, therefore it is not a microfracture/crack.

It is a macrofracture/crack.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Hey randy when I break my cams can I send them to you for two new ones? If not I am going to use them as bail cams.

I eagerly await your response!

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Jake Jones wrote:How do you use a GriGri to make lowering off one biner halfway up a route on one bolt redundant?
Okay, so you decide the .13a sport route you got on is actually more like .14a and you cant make it to the top. So you want to bail off on your trusty bail biner that you keep on your chalk bag. You clip into the bolt you are stuck at with your sling, unweight the rope, thread the bail biner, and so on and so on, you know the story. But before you call take and start lowering down, you take your GriGri, Cinch, or less preferably, your prusik, and you attach it to the belayer's side of the rope. But you point the climber's hand DOWN towards the BELAYER. Basically you set it up just like you would set it up if you were going to rap the route yourself off the single bolt, but you thread the device backwards. Again, the climber's hand on the GriGri or Cinch points towards the belayer, not up towards you. Clip the GriGri or Cinch into your belay loop with a locking biner.

Now say you are lowering and the top bolt blows. Normally you would have so much slack in the system you would deck and possibly die. But because you are clipped into the GriGri, the GriGri will [presumably] catch you and you will basically take a lead fall onto the bolt right below you. Basically what you are doing is you are setting up a roped solo lead belay, but instead of lead climbing up, you are getting lowered down. But if you were to fall, it would be just like a roped solo lead fall, except your partner is your counterweight instead of a haulbag or an anchor on the ground.

When lowering you want to wait until the last possible minute before cleaning the draw right below you. If you reach down and unclip the draw, and then the top bolt fails, you are going to have more distance between you and the next bolt then you would if you had waited as long as you can before cleaning the draw.

Now, because you have a GriGri on the rope, there will be some resistance when lowering, but because it is essentially threaded backwards, it wont stop you as you are being lowered, it will just produce some drag. The Cinch works better than the GriGri for this.

Read here for more info: google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q…

Just replace the prusik in the pictures with your GriGri or Cinch. Every sport climber should know this trick, it could save your life one day.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

or you could use a prussik ... which is of course lighter and you might use for your chalk bag waist strap anyways .... i dont typically carry a gri gri up with me on sport climbs ....

tradryan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 63
20 kN wrote: Okay, so you decide the .13a sport route you got on is actually more like .14a and you cant make it to the top. So you want to bail off on your trusty bail biner that you keep on your chalk bag. You clip into the bolt you are stuck at with your sling, unweight the rope, thread the bail biner, and so on and so on, you know the story. But before you call take and start lowering down, you take your GriGri, Cinch, or less preferably, your prusik, and you attach it to the belayer's side of the rope. But you point the climber's hand DOWN towards the BELAYER. Basically you set it up just like you would set it up if you were going to rap the route yourself off the single bolt, but you thread the device backwards. Again, the climber's hand on the GriGri or Cinch points towards the belayer, not up towards you. Clip the GriGri or Cinch into your belay loop with a locking biner. Now say you are lowering and the top bolt blows. Normally you would have so much slack in the system you would deck and possibly die. But because you are clipped into the GriGri, the GriGri will [presumably] catch you and you will basically take a lead fall onto the bolt right below you. Basically what you are doing is you are setting up a roped solo lead belay, but instead of lead climbing up, you are getting lowered down. But if you were to fall, it would be just like a roped solo lead fall, except your partner is your counterweight instead of a haulbag or an anchor on the ground. When lowering you want to wait until the last possible minute before cleaning the draw right below you. If you reach down and unclip the draw, and then the top bolt fails, you are going to have more distance between you and the next bolt then you would if you had waited as long as you can before cleaning the draw. Now, because you have a GriGri on the rope, there will be some resistance when lowering, but because it is essentially threaded backwards, it wont stop you as you are being lowered, it will just produce some drag. The Cinch works better than the GriGri for this. Read here for more info: google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q… Just replace the prusik in the pictures with your GriGri or Cinch. Every sport climber should know this trick, it could save your life one day.
Nobody carries this stuff while leading sport routes. Also, once the leader reaches the height of the second to last piece... they unclip it to let the system pass? Meh
Rob Gordon · · Hollywood, CA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 115

I'm not crazy about the gri gri thing (too funky to seem worth it to me), but I think it's not a bad idea to use two leaver biners at the last two bolts if the bolts look anything less than bomber and you are going for a fairly long lower and clean.

Devin Krevetski · · Northfield, VT · Joined May 2008 · Points: 140

Is there any record of a person decking because they lowered from a biner that wasn't backed up in any way? I understand wanting to stay safe and everything but we don't always use two ropes (when there ARE instances of rope failure) or two belayers or two belay devices or lockers on all our quickdraws.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
devkrev wrote:Is there any record of a person decking because they lowered from a biner that wasn't backed up in any way? I understand wanting to stay safe and everything but we don't always use two ropes (when there ARE instances of rope failure) or two belayers or two belay devices or lockers on all our quickdraws.
Yes, many, some died. I dont know of anyone that has decked because the bailbiner came unclipped, but a number of people have decked from the bolt pulling.

Rob Gordon wrote:I'm not crazy about the gri gri thing (too funky to seem worth it to me)
It's not hard, I learned this trick from Petzl, it wasent something I made up, and Petzl likes to keep stuff simple. As you can see in the link I posted, it's easy to set up and it is certainly something worth knowing, it could have saved a number of lives that have been lost due to bailing off a sport route with no redundancy. But yes, a second bail biner would work too, it just requires you leave double the amount of hardware up there.
tradryan wrote: Nobody carries this stuff while leading sport routes. Also, once the leader reaches the height of the second to last piece... they unclip it to let the system pass? Meh
That stuff? As in a GriGri? I know many people that climb with a GriGri, and some of them climb very hard.

Yes, you would just unclip the draw to let the piece pass, but you kind of have to do that anyway if you want your draws back. How else are you going to get your draws back on a route you are bailing off without actually disconnecting them from the bolt hanger and the rope? If you are going to leave your draws on the wall as booty, then you dont need this system anyway because you already are lowering off redundant bolts.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Jake Jones wrote:It was a little hard to picture as you explained it, but the concept is that with a GriGri or Cinch attached to the line that goes to the belayer, if you fall, you negate the distance of rope that's out from your tie-in, to the belay device on the other line. I don't care what anyone else says, even if I never use it, it's still good to know. Thanks for the tip.
No problem. Just click this link: google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q…

It is a Petzl technical article that hows pictures on how to set this system up. That link will download a .pdf file to whereever you have your browser set to download files to.

Here is a photo.
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
johnnyrig wrote:Assuming the route is vertical..
It can be done on overhanging routes as well. When you lower off of overhanging routes you obviously clip into the belayer's side of the rope so you can get your draws back. Well the GriGri does that for you, you are already clipped into the belayer's side of the rope.
Eric Bratschun · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 75

oh just say ok and give him the self-imposed chance and picturs to back up his epic tale of how daring he was when he "had" to bail off of a broken biner in a lightning storm when rapping down a rout that he will probably climb on purpose that is named "oh no you didn't"!

BigJuggsjohnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 220
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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