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Epinephrine Rescue

Bobby Hanson · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2001 · Points: 1,230

I stand by what I said.

Buff has considerable experience in this area. I agree with his opinion here. Strongly.

Examining the validity of a call for aid is counterproductive at best. As a policy it is downright dangerous. Charging for response is even worse.

If you think it is best to not perform rescues for individuals who are able to walk out on their own, you should talk to some SAR professionals. Rescues where the victim is able to assist the rescue team are easier and safer for the rescuers involved. Most SAR professionals will tell you that not much in their job is worse than body removal. Suggesting that people shouldn't call for aid until they are seriously injured is ridiculous. People should request aid as soon as they require aid. Waiting until you are in a life-threatening situation would be completely insane.

(As an aside, I was involved in a rescue in RRNCA a few months back. The victim suffered a head trama. The cause of the accident was inexperience. My friends and I were on the same wall when the accident happened. Had the victim and her partner asked for assistance before the serious injury, we could have saved her much pain and ourselves the effort of carrying her out.)

SAR in Red Rock Canyon is performed by a department within the Sheriff's office. To those of you advocating charging for response, I wonder if you would also be in favor of charging people who call the police for other reasons, including those who believe they are or will be victims of a crime? Do you really want to go back to the days of fire departments charging "customers" before putting out house fires? I don't. Instead, I am happy to pay taxes to have those services available for everyone in case of need.

Crazy Ayn Rand has convinced everyone that paying taxes is morally and ethically repugnant. It isn't. It is part of living in a civilized society. It allows us to have police departments, SAR, fire departments, a military, national parks, national forest, national monuments, state universities, scientific research, and a whole host of other things that knuckle-draggers find unnecessary.

I'm done ranting.

Robert Fielding · · Thousand Oaks, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 195

Kbobby: Examining the validity of a call for aid is counterproductive at best. As a policy it is downright dangerous. Charging for response is even worse. If you think it is best to not perform rescues for individuals who are able to walk out on their own, you should talk to some SAR professionals.

You have obviously never worked for the government or have been associated with a job that has, otherwise you would see it from a different perspective. Negligence, incompetence, and "the unedumacated" is where most of your "tax payer" money goes to. At least from a medical perspective. What you're saying is exactly the problem that fuels the people. Where do you draw the line? If you don't have a medical/trauma life threatening emergency, SAR should not be called and here is why. Every single time that helicopter responds into a canyon it puts all of the SAR members at life threatening risk with the possibility of death. If the people being rescued are not in "life threatening" danger, then it does not equal out in the equation. Criteria should be met, but there is liability concerned with that matter. Where do you draw the line? Any free service is always taken advantage of. If a person initiates SAR response and is a situation they could have manage on there own, then all means they should be charged. If it was a unnavoidable emergency, then that is a different story.

The only benefit I see is training for the SAR team, but every time they go out there is risk involved. Most of the SAR Vegas team is compiled of Volunteers, not paid police officers. SAR Vegas has 8-10 employed officers and only 2-3 work in a given shift, the rest is volunteer buddy. The volunteer staff is the majority responding to the call.

Eric-D · · Las Vegas, nv · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 300

Both the paid officers and the volunteers in Clark County are some of the best in the country. They are held to the highest standards for both technical skills and physical fitness.

When a call comes in for aid they respond. Period. Without hesitation or judgment. It's easy to pass judgment on a forum about the worthiness of a particular rescue after the fact. But a rescue team does not have that luxury.

Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240

Rob is spot on. Rescues should be a liability of the individual(s) needing rescue, managed no different than how Clark County collects on a speeding ticket, through the courts via a fine. Anyone who could get lost on a route like Epi should not be climbing it to begin with in my opinion, but thats impossible to police nor do I believe government has the competence to do so. Darwin's Law is the best selection management tool for such activities.

This stance is about less government intervention in your lives. More of a libertarian twist. Live and let live until you affect me or in this case the community in which you live or visit in terms of their tax dollars. Dialing 911 should have consequences, it should be the last resort....or, you can dial 911 if somebody did not make your sandwiches the way you liked them...true story about a month ago. Zero consequences.

In Canada National parks, they charge you extra fees on your park pass to cover their annual budgeted expense of rescues, why their national park pass is almost twice ours. I am cool with that if that is how big brother wants to do it. Red Rock NCA is not collecting fees at the gate to cover it.

Some offer weird responses to such debates, i.e. how great a particular SAR team might or might not be. That has nothing to do with it. Same weird responses some Americans exhibit about war debates..."but the troops are such great folks risking it all!"...might be true, but that point has nothing to do with the validity of the war they might be risking it all for.

Rob Fielding wrote: Kbobby: Examining the validity of a call for aid is counterproductive at best. As a policy it is downright dangerous. Charging for response is even worse. If you think it is best to not perform rescues for individuals who are able to walk out on their own, you should talk to some SAR professionals. You have obviously never worked for the government or have been associated with a job that has, otherwise you would see it from a different perspective. Negligence, incompetence, and "the unedumacated" is where most of your "tax payer" money goes to. At least from a medical perspective. What you're saying is exactly the problem that fuels the people. Where do you draw the line? If you don't have a medical/trauma life threatening emergency, SAR should not be called and here is why. Every single time that helicopter responds into a canyon it puts all of the SAR members at life threatening risk with the possibility of death. If the people being rescued are not in "life threatening" danger, then it does not equal out in the equation. Criteria should be met, but there is liability concerned with that matter. Where do you draw the line? Any free service is always taken advantage of. If a person initiates SAR response and is a situation they could have manage on there own, then all means they should be charged. If it was a unnavoidable emergency, then that is a different story. The only benefit I see is training for the SAR team, but every time they go out there is risk involved. Most of the SAR Vegas team is compiled of Volunteers, not paid police officers. SAR Vegas has 8-10 employed officers and only 2-3 work in a given shift, the rest is volunteer buddy. The volunteer staff is the majority responding to the call.
Richard Dower · · Overland Park, KS · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 150

Just a note about people saying they should have just sucked it up and waited til morning. From the SAR story:
"At one point, sleet came down on the team followed by heavy rain."

Even though it is normally pretty warm at night this time of year, I get the feeling the SAR team may have been more familiar with the forecast and saw this as more urgent than normal.

sqwirll · · Las Vegas · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,360
thedogfather wrote:Just a note about people saying they should have just sucked it up and waited til morning. From the SAR story: "At one point, sleet came down on the team followed by heavy rain." Even though it is normally pretty warm at night this time of year, I get the feeling the SAR team may have been more familiar with the forecast and saw this as more urgent than normal.
True, it did rain fairly hard most of the day on the 4th. Although, imo the SAR here is waaay too overzealous with their rescues. I've seen them short haul people in Calico Basin a couple times when the victim is a couple hundred yards from the parking lot.
Seth Derr · · harrisburg, pa · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 2,260

Wouldn't the sleet and heavy rain make the rock especially brittle, thereby making a self rescue or continuation of the climb in the morning more dangerous and potentially detremental to the route itself? I'm not defending the rescue or the climbers, but if i were in that situation that thought would cross my mind. Doesn't rule out leaving a few pieces and descending I guess.

Jeremy Hand · · Northern VA · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 100

And more people would end up dead because of they're anxious, hungry, thirsty, foolish attitude, while trying to manuever on wet, unfamiliar territory.

The best thing for people to do is just stay at home on the couch and enjoy a little American Idol. I've recorded all the seasons on cassette if anyone needs a copy! Just paypal enough to cover shipping.

Jeremy Hand · · Northern VA · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 100
Seth Derr wrote:Wouldn't the sleet and heavy rain make the rock especially brittle, thereby making a self rescue or continuation of the climb in the morning more dangerous and potentially detremental to the route itself?
+1!
Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

Clearly SAR was rescuing the route from these gumbies.

sqwirll · · Las Vegas · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,360
Jeremy Hand wrote: +1!
That's just an old wives' tale.

Here's some proof.

almost there!

/end sarcasm.
Richard Dower · · Overland Park, KS · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 150

That pic is too funny because the route featured is "Idiot Parade" It's like a swimming pool in there.

sqwirll · · Las Vegas · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,360
thedogfather wrote:That pic is too funny because the route featured is "Idiot Parade" It's like a swimming pool in there.
I noticed the irony in that too.
a d · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 5
sqwirll wrote: That's just an old wives' tale. Here's some proof. /end sarcasm.
Jesus, is that how that area always looks?
sqwirll · · Las Vegas · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,360
alexdavis wrote: Jesus, is that how that area always looks?
Well, most of the time there's not any water in it.
a d · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 5
sqwirll wrote: Well, most of the time there's not any water in it.
I meant in regards to the number of people.
sqwirll · · Las Vegas · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,360
alexdavis wrote: I meant in regards to the number of people.
I know, I was just being a smartass. It's usually packed in there during the busy seasons.
Ben Beard · · Superior, AZ · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 215
Rob Fielding wrote: Kbobby: Examining the validity of a call for aid is counterproductive at best. As a policy it is downright dangerous. Charging for response is even worse. If you think it is best to not perform rescues for individuals who are able to walk out on their own, you should talk to some SAR professionals. You have obviously never worked for the government or have been associated with a job that has, otherwise you would see it from a different perspective. Negligence, incompetence, and "the unedumacated" is where most of your "tax payer" money goes to. At least from a medical perspective. What you're saying is exactly the problem that fuels the people. Where do you draw the line? If you don't have a medical/trauma life threatening emergency, SAR should not be called and here is why. Every single time that helicopter responds into a canyon it puts all of the SAR members at life threatening risk with the possibility of death. If the people being rescued are not in "life threatening" danger, then it does not equal out in the equation. Criteria should be met, but there is liability concerned with that matter. Where do you draw the line? Any free service is always taken advantage of. If a person initiates SAR response and is a situation they could have manage on there own, then all means they should be charged. If it was a unnavoidable emergency, then that is a different story. The only benefit I see is training for the SAR team, but every time they go out there is risk involved. Most of the SAR Vegas team is compiled of Volunteers, not paid police officers. SAR Vegas has 8-10 employed officers and only 2-3 work in a given shift, the rest is volunteer buddy. The volunteer staff is the majority responding to the call.
And every single time you're order pizza to be delivered you putting the delivery boy at "life threatening risk with the possibility of death."

I'm sure the SAR team is trained and qualified to modify any rescues when they recognize any hazards to themselves.
a d · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 5
Ben Beard wrote: And every single time you're order pizza to be delivered you putting the delivery boy at "life threatening risk with the possibility of death." I'm sure the SAR team is trained and qualified to modify any rescues when they recognize any hazards to themselves.
And that's why there's a fee for delivery!

lol.
Dow Williams · · St. George, Utah; Canmore, AB · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 240
alexdavis wrote: And that's why there's a fee for delivery! lol.
perfect finish.....damn
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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