Who else would like to see more wide cams on the market?

Aric I would buy probably three large cams, I am not really picky so if you get three popular sizes I would tack my order on those. Of course that is assuming that I have enough money at that point =P Really a anything up to 9 in would be cool, 9 and above I try to avoid haha.

Huh. Two semi-positive responses before a Yur Gonna Die!!!! Guess I spend too much time on ST. :-)

Well, pass the word around and I suppose we could use this thread to hash out details. So long as I cover costs and tooling, it would be a welcome diversion from the daily grind.

I'd likely buy a 9" sized cam depending on cost.

Pulled out my notes, and it looks like a #9 VG has a range of 145-229mm (5.71-9.01"). I've never asked Tom what cam angle he uses, but those numbers fit rather well with 14.0 degrees. And actually, hopping over to his site ( valleygiant.com/) that is indeed what he's using. Pricing would be quite competitive with his stuff, but frankly I'd rather not steal business from him so we'd have to come up with a fairly major design change or three to justify edging in on him. I've got an idea or two, so maybe that's not actually an issue.

-a.

Aric I don't know if it is worth even thinking about, but maybe some longer stems/shorter stems variations? Might make some placements easier... I can only think of one instance when I wanted a longer stem, not sure if the weight would have justified the placement though.

Gotcha on the double axle range issue, but one thing to really figure out before you settle on a design is the pushing the cam issue.

These big dogs are the kind of pieces that you'll walk up the pitch, because you sure as hell don't want to carry more of them than you have to due to weight, even if you could afford a bunch of them.

I've got some 6 Friends that I prefer to the old green BD #5 because they were more stable due to the wider head width if you are climbing over them (rather than pushing), but if you put a 6 friend next to a new 6 camalot, and try to push them up a pitch, the camalot is much easier and doesn't seem to get into jacked-up orientations as much (the friend will often rotate some and then have one lobe go umbrella while the rest are still engaged, etc).

This is a primary concern. As I said before, I don't know whether it's cam angle, head width, double vs. single axle, spring tension, or some combo of those, but nailing that down and desinging with pushing it in mind would be vital IMO.

Well, gave it some more thought and figured it best to give Tom@VG a heads up if a 9" cam if what's wanted. I could certainly do it (with a completely different design), but with such a small/niche market I felt it would be rude for me to edge in on him if he's got them sitting on the shelf. If he takes a pass I'm up for it; I just don't want to step on his toes. Btw, smaller than 9" isn't an issue as the only game in town is BD or WC, and me making a couple cams isn't going to make a difference to them.

Hey Aric how bout off sizes. I.E. ones in between what BD and VG offers. I mean if pricing is competitive with VG than just speaking for myself, I would probably buy VG's cams over yours just because they have a proven background. But if you put out some in between sizes (maybe 5"-7" range) I would rather buy those from you than from BD especially if you think yours will push up better.

BD sizes 5 and 6
85.4-148.5 mm, 3.36-5.85 in (size 5)
114.1-195.0 mm, 4.50-7.68 in (size 6)

Thanks for putting the thought into this.

Good to hear that came across as intended. Tom put a lot of work carving that niche out for himself and I have little interest in infringing on it. Other sizes are fair game if there's interest, so ask around. If we get 4 or 5 per size I'll most likely be able to run them at a rather attractive price, by which I mean covering my costs just to get rid of the material i've been sitting on for years. Ended up I coupdn't figure out the springs for the design I bought the material for (would have covered BD5-VG12 iirc... Theory and practice don't always jive), so the material's been sitting ever since. Springs on traditional designs are no problem, so no worries there; that design was decidedly non-traditional and required some really odd movements of the lobes.

Aric, you make something that versatile I will pay out some serious cash for it! haha. Yeah I know about theory not jiving up to practice. I will ask around see if I can get some more people in my area to want some big cams.

Actually, it was that design that turned me off to expanded range cams.... While they look good on paper, in practice they end up being too wide on the small end and too narrow on the big end. Trango was interested in the design if I was able to figure out the springs, but ultimately the impact on head width killed that project regardless of where the spring issue ended up. Fun cam though, and took me several years to figure out the math behind it (and an hour or two to convince Mal-formerly-of-Trango and his Engineer that the math was actually correct when demonstrating the prototypes... very non-traditional design that acted in very non-traditional ways to yield the same result but with greater range). That then lead to the design I'm currently working on and was hoping to have on the market this summer, but the combination of the baby (now 2), followed by Fixe&Totem and BD's supposed new entry has my stuff sitting on the back burner waiting to see how things fall out. Beta testers liked it big time, but I missed my post-CCH / pre-Fixe/Totem window and am best off waiting before sinking more money into that project. Kept working on it until the BD rumors came out since the beta testers liked them better than Aliens, but I'd rather wait and see what all they have coming rather than getting an undeserved cease-and-desist patent infringement letter in spite of developing it independently (ever look at what all they try and patent? Sheesh....)

Anyway, time to make dinner. I'll likely float the semi-custom-off-size thing on ST later tonight so see if there's interest there, as there's precedent for open-source gear design over there (the D5 hammer and Luke's revival of the Hurricane, as well as my ongoing attempts at making the Hurricane tool-less).

BTW, there's a really interesting patent from a while back that attempts to address the head width issue, as far as I know it didn't go anywhere. Basically the lobes were conical sections... patentstorm.us/applications…

Just curious, but wouldn't you be opening yourself to some pretty massive liability selling homemade cams?

Liability? Quite possibly, given the litigious nature of our society. There are ways to protect myself from it though, which I obviously would investigate. I wonder if climbing gear would have developed as fast if Choiunard and the Lowe brothers had to deal with the constant threat of lawsuit like this? I'm thinking no, but that's a discussion for another time... :-)

Erm, didn't mean to lump myself in with them... was speaking more towards the shift away from self-reliance and acceptance of buying life protection equipment out of the back of a van.

Aric I believe if you sold it to me as a "as is" product. I do believe that would clear you. But I ain't no lawyer. But if our word is worth anything these days, some of us would give Aric our word that we are buying a product from him and assuming the full resposibility of the product.

I agree Aric. How many hardmen and women of yesteryear used homemade equipment or gear climbers of today would deem suspect and inferior? Yet those people climbed the routes we see as classic today.

After borrowing a VG #9 this past spring I was completely blown away by the quality of the cam and how bomber it seemed.

Greg G wrote: After borrowing a VG #9 this past spring I was completely blown away by the quality of the cam and how bomber it seemed.

Yup, Tom does good work. And out of respect for him and the service he's provided the community I'll pass on infringing on his niche unless he says it's ok. :-)

J Hazard wrote:Aric I believe if you sold it to me as a "as is" product. I do believe that would clear you.

Thanks. I'm not one either, and frankly figuring out the liability thing has been on my to-do list for ages now and I really need to get around to taking care of it. If this is the nudge I need to get around to it, that's cool by me.

Aric, I'd definitely be interested in some big cams. I don't really have any particular sizes in mind, I'd have to put a little more thought into that, but I'd definitely be interested in putting some cash down for some different, but well made big cams.

Aric Datesman wrote:Pondered this a couple days, and figured wth.... If there's enough interest in them I might be able to be talked into knocking out a small run of big cams. IIRC I have +/-8 feet of 6" wide by 0.250" thick 6061-T6 sitting on the shelf that was purchased for this sort of thing years ago, and I'm tired of looking at it. Probably some 4" and 5" as well. Would have to get consensus on size, single/double axle, rigid/single/U-stem and whatnot, at which point I could run the costing. I've got a CNC machine shop in the basement, so while possible to do it all with a hacksaw and file I'd instead take the easy route. Heck, for the right price I'd even dig out the anodizing tank and make them all pretty. Oh, and obviously they'd be proof tested to some agreed upon load... Any takers?

I would be interested in a couple units sized at #4.25 in the old BD scale. The old BD #4 is a horror size and it would be good to have a better transition to the next size up (old #4.5/new #5). A double axel design is preferred. *#%$ BD's new sizing in this range!

I would also be interested in the transition size from the biggest BD (old #5/new #6) to the 9” VG. Want in general and for one route in particular.