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Basic setup (climbing out of a hole)

Original Post
Joshua Griffin · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

So, I plan on repelling into a really big hole and there is nothing to climb on to get back out. I was wondering what kind of setup I should be looking at for ascending the rope getting back out. I loaned my book out for a while that would tell me so I am looking to your guys.

I may only do this once so I was looking at the Petzl Tibloc because it is cheap and simple. I could also keep it with me wherever I go just in case.

Joshua

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Joshua Griffin wrote:So, I plan on repelling into a really big hole and there is nothing to climb on to get back out. I was wondering what kind of setup I should be looking at for ascending the rope getting back out. I loaned my book out for a while that would tell me so I am looking to your guys. I may only do this once so I was looking at the Petzl Tibloc because it is cheap and simple. I could also keep it with me wherever I go just in case. Joshua
If you're just doing it once and considering Tiblocs, just use Prusiks. Get two 2-3 foot long pieces of 7mm cord, tie them into two loops using double fisherman knots, and google prusik knot to see how to use them.
Merlin · · Grand Junction · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10

Just my two cents, prusiks stink unless you are in an emergency and have no options, use a bachmann and have tiblocs just in case.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Merlin wrote:Just my two cents, prusiks stink unless you are in an emergency and have no options, use a bachmann and have tiblocs just in case.
Yep, a bachmann is a little bit nicer, but I always forget what it's called. Again though, since he only wants to do it once, I wouldn't worry about the tiblocs since they're like $30 each. He just needs to practice using friction knots a couple times first so he knows what he's doing and doesn't end up stuck in the hole.
Harry Dorcy · · Denver, CO · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 0

And before you get to the bottom of the big hole that you can't climb out of, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go somewhere else and practice ascending the rope with your equipment of choice AND your back-up Prusiks.

csproul · · Pittsboro...sort of, NC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

Do you own a Grigri/Cinch? You can also use on friction hitch/tibloc/ascender, and a Grigri.

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

May setups can be improvised depending on the gear you have and the situation. The ideal situation is of course some variation of two ascenders and stirrups/daisies, but if this is a one time thing and you don't mind all the extra struggle of a lesser setup, it can be done safely. You can probably use a grigri and prussik or even an ATC guide/reverso and prussik, it's just slow and lots of work. The setup you'll want may change depending on if it less than vertical, vertical, or will you be free hanging in space on the end of your. If you're going to buy tiblocs, check out the Wild Country ropeman series too, you may be able to find the older MK1 or MK2 for cheap and they're probably easier to use and friendlier on your rope. As someone said, practice and master the techniques before you find yourself stuck at the bottom of that hole.

Edit - I use the term 'prussik' to refer to any of the friction hitches, not specifically a prussik knot. You'll probably want a bachman or kleimheist or something easier to slide.

Merlin · · Grand Junction · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10
kennoyce wrote: Yep, a bachmann is a little bit nicer, but I always forget what it's called. Again though, since he only wants to do it once, I wouldn't worry about the tiblocs since they're like $30 each. He just needs to practice using friction knots a couple times first so he knows what he's doing and doesn't end up stuck in the hole.
But if he's got tiblocs his friends can borrow them in the future :)

I've got a block against prusiks after trying to climb out of a slot canyon in a semi desperate situation and having them bind on a thinner diameter rope. But yeah, I used to string a rope off my balcony and practice climbing ropes using all the common friction knots, doing it in the field first will make for a crummy day.

Google texas prusik then use a bachman set up, like kennoyce says, it will save money and works just fine.
youtube.com/watch?v=4m5BUYC…
Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

I think cavers usually have the best dialed techniques for ascending fixed ropes. You could consider visiting the vertical forum on the NSS website-
forums.caves.org/viewforum.…
however you can count on a huge number of 'yer gonna die' responses, as well as many questions about exactly what hole you plan on exploring. But any advice you might get will likely be valuable.
There used to be some websites that described vertical techniques, but I wasn't able to find them just now. I'll try again later if I get the chance.
Mark

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

You are going to find ascending with Tiblocs to be a potentially terrifying experience I think. I sure did for the first time. For one, they are very sensitive to the diameter of the carabiner you use with them. Second, if you do not set them right they can slip and strip your rope sheath. This experience is in itself quite a load of fun.

Try to get a static line to drop in the cave and borrow a proper Frog system or just go and buy that stuff. If you really want to get into pit bopping it will be worth it to have your own gear. If you intend to use prusik knots, practice on a rope suspended from a tree brance prior to committing to the void.

I used to do a lot of caving back in the 90s incidentally. You could also contact your local caving club, or grotto as they call them, and see if you can interest some cavers in exploring your hole there.

Joshua Griffin · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

Thank you guys, this is very helpful. The bachmann knot looks really handy. Can I use a sling with this setup?

I don't have a grigri, I have an ATC.

And can I use my dynamic rope? I assume that it is possible to completely destroy a good dynamic rope. Would I need to get a static top?

I will absolutely practice a LOT before I go down into the void. We have trees, barns, 40 foot tall tanks, etc. to practice on. The hole I will be in has perfectly vertical walls so I will be ascending next to this wall.

Joshua

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872
Joshua Griffin wrote:Thank you guys, this is very helpful. The bachmann knot looks really handy. Can I use a sling with this setup?
I've used slings for friction hitches before because i didn't have a choice... but cord works way better. The slings will stack and overlap and not want to loosen.

Also, this quote was quite amusing.

Stich wrote:...interest some cavers in exploring your hole...
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Joshua Griffin wrote:Thank you guys, this is very helpful. The bachmann knot looks really handy. Can I use a sling with this setup? I don't have a grigri, I have an ATC. And can I use my dynamic rope? I assume that it is possible to completely destroy a good dynamic rope. Would I need to get a static top? I will absolutely practice a LOT before I go down into the void. We have trees, barns, 40 foot tall tanks, etc. to practice on. The hole I will be in has perfectly vertical walls so I will be ascending next to this wall. Joshua
Slings do work, but not as well, or as easily, I'd invest the $3 into getting some cord.

You can also use a dynamic rope, but there is a greater risk of sawing through the rope if it is going over anything sharp, so make sure you pad the edge of the hole or anything else that could damage the rope.
Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872
Joshua Griffin wrote:And can I use my dynamic rope? I assume that it is possible to completely destroy a good dynamic rope. Would I need to get a static top? I will absolutely practice a LOT before I go down into the void. We have trees, barns, 40 foot tall tanks, etc. to practice on. The hole I will be in has perfectly vertical walls so I will be ascending next to this wall. Joshua
You can use a dynamic rope, but it will stretch and bounce, making it even less efficient. The bouncing and stretching will cause accelerated abrasion and wear of the rope over any rough edges it runs over. If you pad the edges well (lots of duct tape), you can keep from damaging your rope.
Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872
Joshua Griffin · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

Larry, you are wonderful. That's in a very manly way. I checked out that link and you drew a wonderful diagram. Do I need a ATC Guide or is an ATC-XP okay?

Merlin · · Grand Junction · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 10
kennoyce wrote: Slings do work, but not as well, or as easily, I'd invest the $3 into getting some cord.
+1 buy cord, have devoted ascending cord. While cord may not have saved my life it has certainly saved me a miserable night or two in the desert canyons. Texas Prusiks are a great way to go in slot canyons, caving, or glacier crossings.
Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872
Joshua Griffin wrote:Do I need a ATC Guide or is an ATC-XP okay?
That needs to be a grigri or other guide-mode type device (atc guide, reverso, B-52, etc) for it to auto-capture the rope and let you hang from it hands-free while you reset the prussik(s). If you use a regular ATC you have to hold the brake strand while you reset or you loose your progress. See this Video. It's a good self-rescue technique but i wouldn't set my way down knowing that was how i was getting back up.

If you put a prussik/foot loop on the pull rope like i drew, you have a 2-1 system, pushing the rope down with your foot moves you easily up, but only half as far as you push. It moves slow, but with little effort. If you put the foot-loop right on the top prussik like in the video and don't use a second one at all, you have to pull yourself in/up with one arm while you stand up and pull the rope thru w/ the other hand, then sit and reset. It's more more strenuous, but quicker.
Joshua Griffin · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

Yeah, I had watched that video. Pretty interesting setup. I have some cord on the way and am in the process of purchasing a Guide. I look forward to checking this system out. I will try both methods (2:1 and 1:1) but I suspect I would be happier with a 1:1. I have about 160ft to climb total.

Joshua

Joshua Griffin · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined May 2012 · Points: 60

Everything I need is ordered. I will be practicing on a bridge probably and will post photos of my setup here.

Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872

Josh - Back again - Found a hard copy of this when i was cleanin - check out page 7 and 8. Petzl 2011 catalog

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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