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Is lead climbing ability relavant in top rope climbing instructor trainings?

Original Post
EB · · Winona · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 1,207

Recently there has been some discussion regarding the validity of climbing instructor certifications which do not require lead climbing. The 3 climbing instructor certifying organizations in the the US(AMGA, PCIA, PCGI) all have a single pitch instructor courses which requires candidates to demonstrate a 5.6 lead during the exam. The PCIA and PCGI also have a top rope instructor course(PCIA is base and top managed) and the AMGA used to have the top rope site manager which evolved into the single pitch instructor.
My questions are:
1) is lead climbing an indicator of how well an instructor can run a top rope climbing site and teach basic climbing principles such as anchoring techniques, belaying, etc?
2) is 5.6 a standard which shows competency as a professional instructor?

I am interested in hearing some responses.

I do believe if someone is guiding, lead climbing ability is essential. But what we're talking about here is the vast amount of climbing instructors who facilitate top rope climbing experiences...

DaveB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,075

1. Yes, competent lead climbing is a good indicator of rope management, anchor knowledge and construction, and subsequent safe belaying technique.

2. Yes, 5.6 leading should be the minimum standard of competency for a "professional" instructor.

Remember, not all top rope climbing routes (even easy ones) are accessible from above. Often, they first must be led by someone, then safely anchored, etc. Further, once climbing session is complete, route (anchors) must be adequately 'cleaned', then safely rapped, etc.

a d · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 5

Your questions are loaded so I'm not going to answer them.

However, I would bet a large sum of money that anyone "who has a wealth of knowledge in terms of climbing systems and risk management assessment" can lead well over 5.6.

Honest question with no sarcasm intended: are you upset that someone won't certify you because you don't lead?

EB · · Winona · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 1,207

No. I am truly attempting see if the MP community views top rope instructors needing to demonstrate lead climbing during an assessment. I have seen many climbers who crank super hard take courses that dont evaluate lead ability and they are great TR instructors. I teach/ lead a bunch of climbing trips and almost all are going top roping so I dont have a need to lead, unless demonstrating what it is to novices.
I apologize for the seemingly loaded questions, not intentional.

Julius Beres · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 364

Can someone teach a top roping class without being able to lead? Sure. I don't see why they wouldn't be safe.

Should such a person be hired/certified? I don't think so.

Why? There seems to be a ton of good climbers who are willing to work as instructors. Why would you want an instructor who doesn't participate in one of the biggest aspects of the sport to be your teacher? They may know enough about safety and rope management to set up a top rope, but instructors do more than just teach the basics. Often, instructors introduce new people to the sport of climbing. I would not want an ambassador of climbing to be a casual climber who has not even bothered to learn to lead.

When I first got into climbing, I took a couple of classes taught by very experienced instructors. I remember them telling me stories from climbs they had done, in which there was embedded wisdom. Some of those stories may have helped me avoid mistakes later on.

Before anyone jumps on me, sure, you can love climbing without leading, but I would say most experienced climbers I would want to learn from are experienced trad climbers. Given the huge pool of climbers looking to work as guides and instructors, why on earth would you hire someone that cannot lead 5.6?

DaveB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,075

+1 - Excellent post, Julius.

EB · · Winona · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 1,207

Thanks for your feedback. I agree with your view. My focus isn't that a instructor cannot lead, but are not assessed on lead climbing ability for a TR instructor cert. I would assume that most folks looking to work as an instructor have led a bunch of routes and been climbing for awhile.

Julius Beres · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 364
EB wrote:Thanks for your feedback. I agree with your view. My focus isn't that a instructor cannot lead, but are not assessed on lead climbing ability for a TR instructor cert. I would assume that most folks looking to work as an instructor have led a bunch of routes and been climbing for awhile.
Sure, but most people are assessed on related but not directly needed skills for a job. People can talk about everything they have done, but how do you know?

When I apply for engineering jobs, they often ask math questions which one could argue would not be needed in the job. However, knowing the answer to those questions seems to be a good indicator as to whether the candidate can perform the job. I would say seeing how someone leads would be a good indicator of their climbing abilities.

Personally, I would not want a climbing instructor that could not lead at least 5.10 trad. (Granted, if you are looking for top roping instructors in a gym in a non-climbing town, that standard might be too high.)

Of course, they need to be evaluated for safety as well. There are some incredible climbers who lead very hard but have horrible safety and gear placement, but get away with it because they don't fall. Leading isn't the only thing that matters, but it certainly seems like a good criteria to judge potential climbing instructors.
MTN MIA · · Vail · Joined May 2006 · Points: 405

I am not saying yeah or no, but...

Some food for thought....

If for example there is an incident/accident nearby and people are asking the instructor for help, well then I would hope he or she is competent enough to help.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

There is no way in hell a person who doesn't regularly lead at 5.6 and above should be in a position of responsibility for teaching others about climbing. Such a person is either a total beginner themselves, has remarkably little aptitude for climbing, or has virtually no interest in progressing beyond the beginner stage. In any of these cases, they don't have enough appropriate knowledge and breadth of experience, and may not understand what climbing is actually all about.

I know that there are folks out there doing this, maybe quite a few, and I think it is a bad idea. Climbing is not an activity in which the instructor should be just one chapter ahead of the students. Splitting off a small subset of climbing skills and making them into some certified category, when the person themselves is, from any reasonable perspective, barely competent as a climber, perpetrates something close to a fraud on the public and is an extremely bad idea for the certifying agency as well.

Having to lead a 5.6 during a certification exam is a bare minimum verification of appropriate competence and should not be eliminated.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

- if you cant climb 5.6 lead you shouldnt be instructing ... anyone can lead 5.6, if you cant and youre likely not experienced at all, or your so scared of yr own shadow that you shouldnt be teaching, or yr one of those "big shot" top rope tough guys who yack about how safe their TR anchors are and how hardcore you are for setting up ropes

- many climbs require leading to set up the ropes, if you dont have that ability what you WILL be doing is crowding many of the same, often popular routes over and over again ... an instructor should have the ability to set up ropes on many climbs, not just the ones beginners are setting up TR on, youll just be crowding the same routes

- many clients/students will likely ask about climbing related matters that go beyond top roping .... such as leading, trad, sport, rescue, etc ... an instructor should be able to give competent and relevant answers based on their experience and training so help their students further down the line ... a person who cant lead 5.6 cant do that at all with any competence

youll see groups all the time at the crags where the "group leader" cant even lead their way out of a wet paper bag, never mind help someone in their group who is in trouble ... "certified instructors" however should be held to a higher standard ...

5.6 is a very low threshold IMO ... i can take someone with a competent head and decent climbing ability and show them how to lead at that level safely very very quickly ... if you cant do that you have no business teaching others

Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

I just checked AMGA's website. Other SPI requirements:

-have a genuine interest in rock climbing
-have at least 12 months of climbing experience
-have trad led a minimum of 15 climbs of any grade
-are capable of climbing 5.8 on top rope

So basically, you need to be a complete, albeit enthusiastic, beginner. Also, you need to have $500.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

I don't think that climbing ability matters at all. It is only important that the individual knows all the proper AMGA procedures and is capable of effectively conveying information in a classroom setting... and have $500. ;)

IMHO with standards set that low the certification becomes virtually meaningless. Then again, how much expertise is required to teach people how to TR in a gym? Do we really need a certification for this? Maybe a better question would be "is this type of certification even necessary?"

LeeAB Brinckerhoff · · Austin, TX · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 10,288
NC Rock Climber wrote:I don't think that climbing ability matters at all. It is only important that the individual knows all the proper AMGA procedures and is capable of effectively conveying information in a classroom setting... and have $500. ;) IMHO with standards set that low the certification becomes virtually meaningless. Then again, how much expertise is required to teach people how to TR in a gym? Do we really need a certification for this? Maybe a better question would be "is this type of certification even necessary?"
FWIW, the SPI is a Single Pitch Instructor, which means, taking groups outside and guiding them in a single pitch environment.

CWI, is Climbing Wall Instructor. Yes there needs to be some sort of standardization, I can't believe some of the stuff I've seen taught in gyms over the years. If there is not some standard training that instructors need, eventually there is going to be a really bad accident that is the gyms fault and insurance is going to sky rocket effectively shutting the door on ALL climbing gyms.
Steve Levin · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 952
Eric G. wrote:I just checked AMGA's website. Other SPI requirements: -have a genuine interest in rock climbing -have at least 12 months of climbing experience -have trad led a minimum of 15 climbs of any grade -are capable of climbing 5.8 on top rope So basically, you need to be a complete, albeit enthusiastic, beginner. Also, you need to have $500.
The SPI course manual also states "The above prerequisites are absolute minimums and most candidates exceed them." Someone with the absolute minimum background (your "enthusiastic beginner") may possibly get into an SPI course; however that does not guarantee they will pass the SPI assessment exam and become a certified SPI instructor.

As far as the need for such courses, consider that most of the skills/topics taught in the SPI are not routinely encountered in recreational climbing. Site management, effective teaching strategies, Leave No Trace, client care, risk management, and technical skills (counter-ascending a rope to assist a stuck climber, releasable rappel systems, 3:1 assists, and much else) are taught in the SPI course. All of these topics/skills are central to being an effective and safe single-pitch instructor.
Burghschred Aliberti · · Bend, OR · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 105
EB wrote:I would assume that most folks looking to work as an instructor have led a bunch of routes and been climbing for awhile.
The whole point of a certification is that a third party has evaluated the competency, experience, and skill of an individual. Making assumptions has no place in the certification process. This is why they want to see you lead. If you have actually completed the 40 required trad leads and have the necessary experience, it should be NO PROBLEM. Watching someone lead lets the instructors really see a LOT. Besides, that's probably the most enjoyable part of the exam anyways, why would you NOT want to lead something? I can't think of an answer to that question that doesn't make me think you have no business being an instructor. Even in 'just' a top rope environment, fatalities have happened because of inexperienced anchor set-up. There should be no caveat when someone's life is literally on the line.
Burghschred Aliberti · · Bend, OR · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 105

To answer the topic question, it is extremely relevant. There is absolutely no substitute for learning to place gear than leading. I think the 5.6 level is fair, as long as they have done the number of routes recommended. This is how you learn good, solid primary placements which is the most important part of any anchor. Even better would be a more subjective recommendation that you have led up to two grades under your TR ability (assumed 5.8 for this cert). That way you know they trust their gear and are not just soloing while placing gear. Some clean aid experience would be even better. The rest of the skills can be learned/demonstrated at the base, top, in the gym, etc.

Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70
Steve Levin wrote: The SPI course manual also states "The above prerequisites are absolute minimums and most candidates exceed them." Someone with the absolute minimum background (your "enthusiastic beginner") may possibly get into an SPI course
Good. We agree on all points above. I was not implying that candidates would be rejected from the SPI course if they could climb harder, or had more experience.
Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,280

Some recreational climbers are ONLY interested in a simple toprope experience. They have no initial goals for lead climbing. Maybe after finding the true excitement of the sport, they may seek leads(sport or trad). Then they either 'old school' it by finding willing and dependable partners who will take on a newbie, or find and pay a professional guide with the skills and training.

Numerous climbers never go past toprope climbing. I think alot of serious lead climbers who instruct might get a bit bored with just toprope guests day after day, thus the toprope only certification does have its role. They may have just the same desire and enthusiasm for their guests as other guides. Depends on the area where this is happening too. Some areas are primarily top rope climbing every day, and finding leaders is thin to none. Not everyone needs to be an AMGA multi pitch certified, rescue and wilderness first responder kind of person.

chuck claude · · Flagstaff, Az · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 225

It's funny. At the beginning, the AMGA had two levels for a rock climbing guide, or maybe three, but the minimum ability to lead was 5.10a, and I thought that was a low bar.

It's sort of funny. If someone showed up at the any of the highly regarded guiding schools in Yosemite, the Tetons saying they could SOLIDLY climb 5.6, was a certified SPI instructor they would be laughed out the door. Unfortunately, that Is exactly what many climbing gyms, colleges and outdoors groups employ. Funny double standard when a fair amount of people get their first or only instruction from these groups.

I'd be more in favor of requiring atleast 40 pitches of 5.10a for any guiding level as a bare minimum with the requirements oing up from there.

As for saying some areas are hard pressed to find a lead climber, is a poor excuse for lowering a national standard. Either an individual makes the grade or they need to develop the skills to make the grade. If some regions have only zero, one or two guides that qualify, and the rest of the instructors are uncertified, then atleast people know what they are getting when they hire a guide.

As for the 12 mos, I'm mixed on this. Some climbers will have led only 20 pitches in 12 mos and I've seen others who spent 6 of the 1 w mos in Camp 4 have more experience then some people with 20 years experience. But for the general climbing population I'd say that 12 mos is an e xtremely low bar. Although I'd hate to dismiss the individual who spent 12 mos climbing day after day after day.

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

Lee brings up some good points about the disparate competence level of instruction found at gyms across the country. I used to travel a lot and visited a lot of gyms, and some of the stuff I have seen being practiced really frightened me.

That being said, I don't know that certification is going to solve that. I am also fairly sure that the vast majority of gym owners do not place a lot of value on these certifications. IMHO, part of that is due to the low level of competence required to attain the base level certifications, and part is because most gym positions only pay min-wage and turnover is high. You cannot demand "professional certification" from the employees that want these types of jobs.

Chuck's post above makes great points. Again, this is just my opinion, but I think the "industry" needs to look at raising the bar and encouraging a higher level of professionalism rather than lowering the requirements and creating a greater number of low-level guides. As paid instruction supplants mentoring as the primary way new climbers lean how to climb, I think it is important that the individuals doing the teaching have a significant foundation of experience.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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