Climbing in a group of three with a 1/2 and single rope.

I have led a group of 3 twice but both times I was using twin ropes which made the whole ordeal rather simple. Ex: I lead up tied to both ropes and clipping both ropes into every piece. Each partner is tied into one of the other ends and I belay them both up with an atc guide.

HOWEVER. On this upcomming trip I will not have two twins but rather one single and one half rope. Is it safe to lead clipping both ropes as I fear this would put EXTREME force on the gear if I fell? Or should I lead with the single rope, belay up the second (who is tied to the third climber via the half rope), have him unclip the single and reclip the half rope, then belay up the third. This sounds extremely time consuming. What would you guys do?

Lead on the single, trail the half from your haul loop clipping it into key directional pieces as you go, when you get to the anchor it will be just like the scenario you've used before with twins

trail both ropes, clip both into every piece, but only take a belay (IMPORTANT) on the single rope....this way you don't increase forces on your pieces, nor will you forget to clip the 2nd (1/2) rope into directionals...if you are sure you'll remember to clip the 2nd rope into key directionals, then you can go that route...

you can also, as long as time isn't a big factor, belay one second up to you while s/he trails the 2nd rope, then belay the third climber up...but this is slower...way more sitting around......

have fun!

I would absolutely NOT clip a single and a half rope into the same pieces (as twins), for the reasons you mention.

I have used a single and a half rope combination to:

1) Climb on the single rope and use the half rope as a tag line if the pitch is straight. Then bring both climbers up at the same time.

2) Use the single and the half rope as two half ropes (clipping alternate pieces - normal double rope technique). Then bring both climbers up at the same time.

Just be aware that if doing this in multi pitch climbing, when you start a new pitch, you want to get gear in soon. I suppose that taking a 2:1 fall on both a single and a half rope at the same time could stress your anchor more than you want. I would also think that leaving some slack in one of the lines would alleviate this.

BTW, I've had no problem tying two ropes of different diameters together for rappelling. I usually use an EDK, just like always. Although, sometimes, I've used a flat double fisherman's (DT-FK) gudelius.de/spst.htm

coppolillo wrote:trail both ropes, clip both into every piece, but only take a belay (IMPORTANT) on the single rope....this way you don't increase forces on your pieces, nor will you forget to clip the 2nd (1/2) rope into directionals...if you are sure you'll remember to clip the 2nd rope into key directionals, then you can go that route... you can also, as long as time isn't a big factor, belay one second up to you while s/he trails the 2nd rope, then belay the third climber up...but this is slower...way more sitting around...... have fun!

This is some really bad advice and could lead to screwing one or both of your ropes up or something much worse. If you don't know the answer to this question I would recommend NOT taking the advice of strangers on the internet as the final say.

Understand some important concepts. Then make an informed decision.

1. Falling on two ropes puts a higher impact force on your top piece.

2. Impact forces are important when fall factors are high (usually early in a pitch or when close to your belayer) and/or with marginal gear and/or with heavy leaders.

3. Ropes running at different rates through biners can burn one another.

4. If you begin a pitch clipping both ropes continue to do this for the entire pitch. edit: not recommended if you are being belayed on only one rope. See 3 above.

5. If you begin a pitch clipping alternate pieces continue to do this for the entire pitch (assuming your are being belayed on both!).

1. I tie into both single and half rope
2. One partner ties into the half and the other ties into the single
3. Partner belays me using ONLY the single rope
4. I climb clipping both ropes into every piece
5. If I fall both ropes will slide together but only the single will catch my weight

Why is this "bad"? This is no different from the twin rope system except only one rope is taking the force of the fall.

Lspade wrote:4. I climb clipping both ropes into every piece 5. If I fall both ropes will slide together but only the single will catch my weight Why is this "bad"?

3. Ropes running at different rates through biners can burn one another.

Don't overthink this. I've climbed using this rope combo forever, whether as a team of 2 or 3. You're not going to die. Clip as normal or as desired for rope management purposes. Treat your seconds kindly, simul-belay.

The biggest consideration to me is for your seconds. Put the big guy on the big rope since he will stretch the hell out of a thin rope. Use your judgement as to which second should be first.

I personally don't worry about fall forces becuase I don't expect to fall very far or often and I don't expect my partner to be able to evenly brake the two ropes anyway.

ddriver wrote:Don't overthink this. I've climbed using this rope combo forever, whether as a team of 2 or 3. You're not going to die. Clip as normal or as desired for rope management purposes. Treat your seconds kindly, simul-belay. The biggest consideration to me is for your seconds. Put the big guy on the big rope since he will stretch the hell out of a thin rope. Use your judgement as to which second should be first. I personally don't worry about fall forces becuase I don't expect to fall very far or often and I don't expect my partner to be able to evenly brake the two ropes anyway.

Pretty typical for the quality of advice on this site.

Glad to see that you plan your falls and exist outside the physical world in which the rest of us mere mortals do, allowing you to disregard the possible fall factor. You should find a superhero belayer as well so that you can avoid the chances of your ropes burning the shit out of each other when you clip them to the same biner but fall on only one rope. I've seen a fall like this and it burned through the sheath on one rope and fuzzed the hell out of the other but I guess that was just a freak occurrence and not exactly what should be expected to happen despite the fact that every climbing instructional book on the planet warns against doing this very thing.

Lspade wrote:5. If I fall both ropes will slide together but only the single will catch my weight Why is this "bad"? This is no different from the twin rope system except only one rope is taking the force of the fall.

No, not exactly. If one rope is being held taut by the belay but the other isn't, they may move at different rates. This is NOT the same as twin rope technique.

This is what I would do with the ropes you mention:

Be belayed on and only clip the larger rope to gear.

If a directional is necessary, add a separate biner to the appropriate piece of gear for the thin line so both ropes will be clipped to that piece but using separate biners.

Greg D wrote:This is what I would do with the ropes you mention: Be belayed on and only clip the larger rope to gear. If a directional is necessary, add a separate biner to the appropriate piece of gear for the thin line so both ropes will be clipped to that piece but using separate biners.

And we have a bingo.

Leeroy wrote: 3. Ropes running at different rates through biners can burn one another.

Do you have a source for this? I see it get mentioned a lot on the interwebz but I have never seen it substantiated. Rope manufacturers such as Mammut don't seem to consider it a factor.

Leeroy wrote: Pretty typical for the quality of advice on this site. Glad to see that you plan your falls and exist outside the physical world in which the rest of us mere mortals do, allowing you to disregard the possible fall factor. You should find a superhero belayer as well so that you can avoid the chances of your ropes burning the shit out of each other when you clip them to the same biner but fall on only one rope. I've seen a fall like this and it burned through the sheath on one rope and fuzzed the hell out of the other but I guess that was just a freak occurrence and not exactly what should be expected to happen despite the fact that every climbing instructional book on the planet warns against doing this very thing.

But it also gets tiring listening to every keyboard climber pontificate on exaggerated dangers. If he clips the ropes together and takes a huge whipper, it may damage the sheath, but he won't care because he'll be glad he didn't die. A small fall will not damage them.

In this scenario, only one rope will be under tension, so I doubt they'll do much. Someone should do 30 or 40 drop tests to find out. I'm going climbing.

Lspade wrote:What would you guys do?

I use this combo a bunch, too, when climbing with a party of three.

I'd probably just have a belay on the single rope, and, if the route traversed a bunch, clip both into the pro near the traverses (thinking of the third and considering you'll be bringing both climbers up at the same time).

Heavier climber on the single, per ddriver's advice (geez, ddriver, didn't we just climb as a party of three wednesday night? Didn't realize you weren't a mere mortal...congrat's!! Ok, actually, that has been hinted at...).

Another thing you could do, is, lead as if both ropes are doubles. My bet is most modern ropes could be rated as both, and, some are. Might check the rope manuf's info on the rope and see. Handy if they are!

Copperhead wrote: But it also gets tiring listening to every keyboard climber pontificate on exaggerated dangers.

Amen brother. That's where I'm coming from, too. I also get tired of reading about the advice from those so-called instructional guides regarding belays and cordalettes and equalettes and all the other associated bs. It usually generates the same false drama because someone read something they believe to be gospel.

So, you saw two ropes rub against each other in a fall. You don't think the same thing could just as easily happen with twins or doubles? This isn't a precision production here, belaying two ropes. At least with a bigger rope in the equation, I'd say you have a better safety factor.

I will comment on one piece of poor advice I just noticed. When you have two ropes in a climbing team, always tie into the ends. Don't clip an end to a gear loop, and don't trail a rope up a route. The best way to keep control of two ropes is just to belay them both whether you need to or not.

Looks like I went and led with two 10's the other evening. Lucky to be alive.

i take it that all these "safety" conscious people wear helmets whether sport climbing, trad climbing or bouldering all the time ... as you are way more likely to get hurt banging yr head than a bit of rope rub on what is basically a top rope fall ... ie rope stretch ...

there are those online who love to go on and on about what is very unlikely to kill you ... while ignoring that which is quite likely ...

in the real world people just go out and climb