Fracking ruins an American bouldering mecca

Airbiscuit- thanks for making me postpone my histology homework for another hour! J/k. Good reading on that link.

Sounds like it's all under control then and there is nothing to worry about. Whew, for a minute there I thought we humans were doing something that we'd regret. There's nothing to see here. Carry on.

Topher, did you think that the ST thread had nothing to offer this discussion or something? I thought there was some pretty informative info at least involving processes etc...

No, not really, our energy policy as a whole is pretty much a disaster. There should be discourse. But if you don't know the first thing about something it kind of sucks to go sensationalizing a bunch of bullshit about it.

No, I think this discourse is all really good, as is the ST discussion, it's just I'd prefer to walk away when the experts don't want to be questioned. We need to have these discussions. In one post I put on Facebook, somebody replied, "What's fracking?" That pretty much says it all - most of us are in the dark, then a fracking operation shows up in our yards.

I think everyone who has contributed to this thread is thinking about the right stuff. Even those who don't know a thing about it, including myself. I don't know anything, but I'm not sensationalizing bullshit either - I'm just sharing what I'm seeing out there and fracking by elementary schools in Colorado and all over the hunting/hiking/fishing/bouldering wonderland of Pennsylvania is reason enough to be concerned.

I've enjoyed it more than any other MP thread I've ever seen. Let's keep talking and those of you in the energy industry I hope you'll move it in the right direction, and encourage investment in the next chapter of energy rather than fighting for the old to make a buck.

And for you industry experts out there, don't forget, it's often the experts who have all the info and then forget to tie their knots...

Still nothing specific from MattG regarding "misinformation" from Gasland--I'm certainly willing to watch any other documentary about the fracking/energy stuff...but I'm dubious about anything produced/funded by the very people making millions off the practice...

Hasn't the past 50 years shown "industry experts" to be biased beyond relevance? Whether it's healthcare, agribusiness, energy, tobacco, plastics...their data have been consistently skewed to maximize profits.

See: cigarettes and cancer, CO2 and climate change, drug risks, etc, etc...

I think we need some non-industry experts to chime in!

Nick Stayner wrote: And Matt- again, what specifically is this "misinformaton, misleading, misinterpreted and skewed data" that you speak of in Gasland?

I too work in the industry as an environmental consultant. I deal only with oil and gas. While there is a lot of good information on the thread there is a lot of mania on here as well. This topic is so political and "hut button" that most of you who do not work directly in the industry in one way or another should consider 50% of your information about as solid as the political commercials you see on TV in October.

Here is the response from the Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission on GasLand and the skewed points they made. http://cogcc.state.co.us/Announcements/Hot_Topics/Hydraulic_Fracturing/GASLAND%20DOC.pdf

I admit that Josh Fox made a great movie. It was very entertaining. But in the end it is about as biased and polarizing as any Michael Moore flick. The movie does exactly what it should do, raise awareness and concern for what could be happening. Are all Josh's facts straight, no. Come on, he is talking to people with frozen animals in their freezer! Would you completely trust that person?

Another discrepancy in the movie that makes me laugh every time I see it is when Josh sits down with the landowner and reviews one of the lab reports and tell her how one of the compounds detected is from contamination of the aquifer from oil and gas activity. Little does he know it is simply the surrogate compound that the lab adds to every sample run to analyze quality assurance/quality control protocols on the data. Talk about stirring the pot.

These poor landowners in Weld County have no idea that their wells are completed in an aquifer with coal lenses abundant enough that they were surface mined in areas of Weld County (and Boulder) a long time ago. Some one looks to buy a nice house and the seller doesn't tell them that you can light the water on fire. People have been able to do that in Weld County for 50 years. Not only that, they do it like it is nothing. I have sampled numerous wells and they ask every time if I want to see them do it. It is extremely dangerous. These aren't rocket scientists we're dealing with here.

Anyway, I intended not to type anything as this horse was beaten to death long ago. Any real details to help solve this heated debate are as they say "confidential".

Hopefully this helped supply some of the misleading points Mr. G was referring to. I'm sure there are more for the northeast areas of the movie, I am only very familiar with the Colorado issues. I don't want someone to think I am in the pocket of O&G as this is not true. I deal with facts. I get to see them and collect them everyday. This helps cut through the commercials with crystal clean O&G facilities as well as the ones with oil covered birds. The sad truth is no one listens these days until they are shocked.

In regards to water usage there is not doubt that we all need to conserve where possible. It can take one to five million gallons to frac an O&G well depending on if it is a vertical or horizontal well. In the short season your neighborhood golf course is open they can burn through 35 to 50 million gallons of water on average. Just something worth thinking about. There are companies developing polymers right now that will greatly reduce the total volume of water necessary to frac. Don't worry in the presentation they gave the polymers were made from food grade products. Granted they could inject McDonald's hamburgers and someone would cry pollution.

Sorry for the novel, I'm off to bed.

I'm sure someone else has already made this point, BUT...

IF YOU DON'T LIKE FRACKING:
• stop driving your car
• stop using climbing gear
• stop using public roads
• stop using your computer/iPhone
• stop climbing in Rifle
• stop using your grill
• stop living in a house or a tent
• stop flying around the globe to cool climbing areas
• stop buying food at stores
• stop drinking beer
The list goes on...

Personally I hate talking politics in a climbing forum. There are other places for that.

a quick note, i work for a company that, among other things, supplies the "fluid gas" used to fracture shale and extract oil and natural gas, although i am not working in this division. Although some of the fluids used in the past may have been toxic, as mentioned, the majority of the fluids used today, or that will be used in the future, are high pressure liquid nitrogen or liquid carbon dioxide, both of which are non toxic, abundant, relatively cheap, and are found naturally; the reason that they are used. in fact the carbon dioxide is, or soon will be harvested off of LNG electricity plants where it is burned, the CO2 is liquefied, and then used to extract more gas. Over all the process has gotten much cleaner, and will continue to do so. As many have stated before, the main source for concern lies with the gas company in the building of the wells and the casings used for them, with a more "minor" concern being the actual fracturing of the rock, normally 5000 feet or so below the surface. i hope this helps to clear up some possible confusion in terms of the "fluids" that are used.

+ 1 for stropsa. Fracking in general (except in the case of shallow gas extraction i.e. Coal bed methane) Has nothing to do with ground water contamination. Well construction can and does. Very simlpy remidied by bringing "cement" (the agent that bonds the wellbore casing to the surrounding rock) all the way to surface, and running a what's called a "bond log" (a reading of how well the cement bonded to the wellbore) wich most companys volunteer to do so already. I might add that they should be mandated to do so. In the scope of things it is cheap insurance.

Thats why that supertopo thread is so good, Base104 lines out the issues and knows the geology of the different basins very well.

Stropsa who do you work for? Using the CO2 is a fairly new process isn't it?

I was born in Pittsburgh and now live by Devils Tower Wyoming. Although I hear what everyone is saying about the oil and gas industry and we might as well put the coal industry in the boat too. Guess if we dont like it we could stay cool in the shade tree in the summer and hope were good fire builders to stay warm in the winter. Think I'll take my coal fired electricity and my natural gas that was produced right here in the US.

Mia Tucholke wrote:Personally I hate talking politics in a climbing forum. There are other places for that.

This conversation is about power endurance, not politics. I agree, keep politics out of it. We are all in this system that is supported by fossil fuel, but that doesn't mean we have to like it and not question it.

I never said we should stop fracking or using fossil fuels cold turkey - I do think we should use our fossil fuels with care, be careful with fracking, and not do it in town.

Mia Tucholke wrote:Personally I hate talking politics in a climbing forum. There are other places for that.

Classic Armchair Activist. Talking Fracking = talking Politics

Beagle----- clearly you havnt read this thread..... I have not talked about fracking, nor will I......
And I am not an armchair activist, in fact I can be quite active, but not about politics on MP.....
Just my humble opinion....

Mia, if you don't want to talk politics, why even bother entering the fray? Easy enough just to ignore the thread and even easier not to respond to it, no?

Airbiscuit & others "in the industry", thanks for engaging on here. Been really interesting to learn more about the actual process and geology/hydrology. Information like that only enhances people's understanding regardless of their views on other aspects of the issue (business, regulation, etc...).

FWIW, currently driving through the Powder River Basin on my way to Tensleep from Billings. Seems pertinent and on topic as i look out at the rigs...

Mia Tucholke wrote:Beagle----- clearly you havnt read this thread..... I have not talked about fracking, nor will I...... And I am not an armchair activist, in fact I can be quite active, but not about politics on MP..... Just my humble opinion....

Mia- this site is packed full of very well informed people, versus so many other places that are just nothing but trolls. Thus, it is great place for such discussions.

Beagle wrote:I'm sure someone else has already made this point, BUT... IF YOU DON'T LIKE FRACKING: • stop driving your car • stop using climbing gear • stop using public roads • stop using your computer/iPhone • stop climbing in Rifle • stop using your grill • stop living in a house or a tent • stop flying around the globe to cool climbing areas • stop buying food at stores • stop drinking beer The list goes on...

This is terrible logic...

Yeah, the old "if you don't like it, then don't drive your car..." logic is a straw man-argument. classic.

thanks to the posters with real info...much appreciated. nice to see a civil discussion on mp!

RC

Delta-----agreed and point taken....