Question regarding AMGA / ACMG / IFMGA standards for masterpoints.

@Karsten & Derek

It seems as though there may be some level of variation in the way the SPI course is taught. And/or, my memory is not 100%, which is definitely the case at times but I have a distinct recollection of the anchor set up inspection because I'd run out of gear when leading the route and had to get creative with two cams when setting it up. So, there was a bit of discussion about it. But, perhaps, that discussion overshadowed the master point component.

In any case, it's good to get the input from others who teach the course.

Note to self and others: when undergoing the lead climbing assessment don't simply take your gear back from the guy who led another route before you without first checking to see what you do/don't have. It kind of sucks to get points deducted for not having the gear to protect the crux and set up a three-point anchor even if you do get creativity points, which don't count for much.

Derek Doucet wrote: Given what appears to have been a TR anchor failure leading to a recent fatality in the Gunks, I for one see value in these discussions. If you don't, I respectfully suggest you refrain from reading them or posting to them.

given that the best place to learn aint on the intrawebs ... i respectfully suggest that anyone who is serious gets a good anchor book, take a course, or at the very least join an alpine club

i was almost killed by someone who learned something on the "internet"

bearbreeder wrote: given that the best place to learn aint on the intrawebs ... i respectfully suggest that anyone who is serious gets a good anchor book, take a course, or at the very least join an alpine club i was almost killed by someone who learned something on the "internet"

Well we agree on that much at least! And I'm very happy you're still kicking...

Crag Dweller wrote:@Karsten & Derek It seems as though there may be some level of variation in the way the SPI course is taught. And/or, my memory is not 100%, which is definitely the case at times but I have a distinct recollection of the anchor set up inspection because I'd run out of gear when leading the route and had to get creative with two cams when setting it up. So, there was a bit of discussion about it. But, perhaps, that discussion overshadowed the master point component. In any case, it's good to get the input from others who teach the course. Note to self and others: when undergoing the lead climbing assessment don't simply take your gear back from the guy who led another route before you without first checking to see what you do/don't have. It kind of sucks to get points deducted for not having the gear to protect the crux and set up a three-point anchor even if you do get creativity points, which don't count for much.

There will always be some level of variation as the climbing and more specifically, guiding and instructing realms are very dynamic environments. The core concepts however will be the same and reflect safe and efficient systems and methodology to give the client the best day out on the rock.

Crag Dweller wrote: Unless I completely overlooked it, the manual doesn't explicitly spell out whether or not two lockers are required to meet AMGA guidelines.

As nearly as I can see, it does not. And yet, that is the manual that is used by AMGA for SPI. Do you agree? Perhaps there is no standard. Or the standard is different for AMGA and ACMG. Or the standard depends on the instructor. That would inspire confidence, wouldn't it?

Nonetheless, the manual shows a single locker (not a single non-locker) on page 49 and the text calls it an anchor masterpoint. That should be enough to have steitz show his friend and say: "It shows at least one locker. Not one non-locker. Maybe you misunderstood or your guide friend is wrong." See below.

steitz wrote:I ask because I've been talking with a guy who's asserting that he was taught by a friend who's an ACMG guide that one non-locker is acceptable as the carabiner in the masterpoint for belaying off of.

Which brings me back to my thought about common sense. Do you feel safe with one non-locker as an anchor masterpoint? No? Neither do I. Does your common sense tell you to add another O&O or to add a locker? Good. So does mine.

wivanoff wrote: As nearly as I can see, it does not. And yet, that is the manual that is used by AMGA for SPI. Do you agree? Perhaps there is no standard...

Yep, that's definitely the manual. The fact that it's not in there doesn't necessarily imply what the standard is, though. A lot of stuff they teach in the course isn't in the manual. In fact, there's probably more that's not in there than is. Perhaps this is because they don't want to create a 2-300 page book for a 3-day course.

The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:I've climbed with and near quite a few guides, and not seen any correlation between guide certification and what I'd consider safe climbing practices or even good mountain sense...

When they were with clients? I probably haven't witnessed as many examples as you have, Killis, but every time I've seen a guide climb with clients they've been following the 'standards' pretty closely if not to the T.

But, from the couple of climbs I've done with guides as their partner and the conversations I've had with them about their own personal practices and risk tolerances, I'd definitely agree that they don't always follow the guidelines they use with clients.

The Dread Pirate Killis wrote:I've climbed with and near quite a few guides, and not seen any correlation between guide certification and what I'd consider safe climbing practices or even good mountain sense. My thought would be that if it looks good to you and doesn't immediately set off the "dude, what the fuck" alarm from your partner, you're probably kosher. Literally every dangerous, commonly decried practice is in use by guides every day in the U.S.; I don't have time to get a list together of any length, but soloing loose pitches while guiding clients, poor anchor equalization, skipping pro that could prevent groundfall while leading on gear at their limit, back clipping, using half ropes as twins, retrobolting (zing), climbing with unsafe and unskilled partners is a pretty solid start. Worry less about what an AMGA card holder says and more about what looks safe to you, or if you're really interested, take the time and money and get certified, and see if you're safer with that piece of paper in your pocket. No disrespect to all the talented, safe, hardworking guides out there who are a credit to this pursuit. You know what your coworkers are up to, I'm not making anything above up, am I?

I'm gonna have to disagree with this one ... generally I have found that folks who have taken the time and energy to get certified seem to stick with safe practices.

(Note: This isn't to say that folks without certs are unsafe.)

I'm with Geir...maybe there are some cowboys out there, but in general an AMGA-certified guide is probably pretty solid...

"AMGA Certified" isn't what it once was. Before it was pretty tough to gain this distinction, 30 grade V's minimum etc. Now when someone says they are AMGA they could have taken a weekend class for $600. Which, may be an excellent class but can't really create experts. The whole deal has been watered down across the board, unfortunately for those who are the real deal.
Anyone could practically just make up their own "certification" and sell it if they market it correctly. Caveat Emptor.

I see things as either safe or un-safe and in many ways this is arbitrary. These "certifications" have to come up with standards to legitimize themselves but in reality they are many "safe" ways to do things.

If I were to hire a guide I wouldn't give half a shit about their certification I would look at their bio and more importantly their demeanor and attitude.

Climbing Fascist wrote:"AMGA Certified" isn't what it once was. Before it was pretty tough to gain this distinction, 30 grade V's minimum etc. Now when someone says they are AMGA they could have taken a weekend class for $600. Which, may be an excellent class but can't really create experts. The whole deal has been watered down across the board, unfortunately for those who are the real deal. Anyone could practically just make up their own "certification" and sell it if they market it correctly. Caveat Emptor. I see things as either safe or un-safe and in many ways this is arbitrary. These "certifications" have to come up with standards to legitimize themselves but in reality they are many "safe" ways to do things. If I were to hire a guide I wouldn't give half a shit about their certification I would look at their bio and more importantly their demeanor and attitude.

Perhaps you aren't aware that there are levels of AMGA certification. And, the discussion has been held largely within the context of a specific certification level. If you're hiring a guide for a grade V climb, the method that guide uses for a top rope set up should be the least of your concerns.

Thoughts on the "AMGA way":

elevationoutdoors.com/magaz…

Crag Dweller wrote: Perhaps you aren't aware that there are levels of AMGA certification. And, the discussion has been held largely within the context of a specific certification level. If you're hiring a guide for a grade V climb, the method that guide uses for a top rope set up should be the least of your concerns.

I'm aware of the levels but I think often a guide without the upper echelon of certification mutters it under their breath, "I'm AMGA...".

However, even some of the guys who jumped through all the big hoops at AMGA are assholes and wholly unfit to guide donkeys. Guiding isn't particularly hard per se it just helps alot to have extensive "mountain sense" and people skills and you don't need the AMGA or any other certification to get that.

Back to the OP: "I ask because I've been talking with a guy who's asserting that he was taught by a friend who's an ACMG guide that one non-locker is acceptable as the carabiner in the masterpoint for belaying off of. This strikes me as silly, and a needless risk, but I was wondering if he was misunderstanding what his friend said, and if there's an actual minimum guideline standard anywhere."

Belaying off one non-locking carabiner is doable but not ideal and I can't imagine the AMGA etc would miss the chance to make such a simple standard of belaying off a locking carabiner. Either your friend mis-interpreted Mr. AMGA or Mr. AMGA is actually Mr. AMGA with an asterisk. However, if you don't have a locker that doesn't mean you can't belay safely without it.

It's encouraging to hear this Rob but without any simple standards (aka the AMGA Way) how does that give value to the certifications? From your description is sounds like there's just some guy giving you a bunch of pointers. I understand the philosophy of the approach, teaching people how to think instead telling them what to do has its merits but where's the value for A. You B. Client?

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Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.

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Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?

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Ted Nelson, Customer: Okay, I'll buy from you.

If climbing was cut and dry then I am sure the AMGA would have cut and dry rules.
But I am sure you agree, Climbing Fascist that there are many variables in climbing that could make one use different techniques from one variation to the next. So a great deal of understanding concepts and application must be had.
And remember, that is just climbing, which is one tool a guide must have to take clients out into the mountains. So guiding has many other variables that make it an even more dynamic environment.
At the lower levels of certification we do have more "rule" like thinking. At the higher levels you just have to justify what you do.

Hope that helps a little with some understanding.

www.karstendelap.com

Karsten Delap wrote:If climbing was cut and dry then I am sure the AMGA would have cut and dry rules.

Maybe that's the real problem: Some people are looking for cut and dry rules. Look at the OPs questions. Others may be looking for someone to make decisions for them. Still others to be able to point to something and say "See? I'm right and you're wrong".

Let's remember that the "G" in AMGA/ACMG/IFMGA stands for "Guide". The rules or standards are written for guides who are responsible for clients. Are they always "best practice" for recreational climbers? Sometimes. But, let's say the guideline is to use 3 O&O carabiners or to use two locking carabiners at a master point. Do all of you actually do that all the time? I don't. I make a judgment call for each situation.

It's kind of like at work I have to conform to what OSHA says, even in little things. Is that best practice for ALL situations? IMO, no. I don't conform to OSHA standards when I'm home cutting my lawn or working in my shop. Do you?

It ticks me off when I do something based on my experience and judgment and someone comes along and says: "Oh, you shouldn't do THAT! I have a friend who's an AMGA guide and HE says...." Like their friend is the world authority on climbing and I haven't learned anything in my 40 years of climbing.

I'll give an example: A few months ago we were teaching an informal basic climbing/rappelling course to some newbies (I am not an AMGA guide, btw). We had two separate static lines from good trees going to a masterpoint of two locking carabiners which we were later going to extend over the edge and use for toproping. We didn't want anyone accidentally pulling down the rope when we were teaching rappelling so we tied a figure 8 loop in the middle of the rope, clipped it to the masterpoint and tossed both ends down. So, this guy leading another group comes along and sees this and says in a loud voice: "That's not redundant. You have only one loop of rope going through the locking carabiners." Someone in my group says: "It's fine, it's no different from tying one strand into your harness" and he responds "It's different. It's rappeling. If you ever tried that in my organization, I WOULD SHUT YOU DOWN!"

Seriously?

Karsten Delap wrote:If climbing was cut and dry then I am sure the AMGA would have cut and dry rules. But I am sure you agree, Climbing Fascist that there are many variables in climbing that could make one use different techniques from one variation to the next. So a great deal of understanding concepts and application must be had. And remember, that is just climbing, which is one tool a guide must have to take clients out into the mountains. So guiding has many other variables that make it an even more dynamic environment. At the lower levels of certification we do have more "rule" like thinking. At the higher levels you just have to justify what you do. Hope that helps a little with some understanding. karstendelap.com

Ok, let me clarify what I'm saying but let me preface this with the fact that there are lots of great guides out there AMGA and otherwise.

-The AMGA made a mistake in offering these simplified courses. It has watered down the name. When people think of AMGA now they don't necessarily think mountain badass because the moniker "AMGA" has been stamped all over every tiny guiding outfit that purchases the weekend course. Glorified baby sitters. In addition in those tiny outfits it seems only the "lead" instructor is AMGA "certified" or in cases I've seen the instructors on site aren't AMGA they are just operating under the AMGA license of their employers. Does the AMGA have regulations regarding how the name "AMGA" is used? Anyway, it's great that there's some professional instruction for these groups however it has come at the cost to those who spent the time and money to get the high end certifications.

-Yes, there are lots of variables in climbing and hence no cut and dry rules. I totally agree with this, however, if this is true how can a certification gain legitimacy? Climbing can't be narrowed down into a manual. So, what is being certified? The answer is trust and reputation. By offering AMGA certifications on the lower levels this trust and reputation has been compromised. It's true that there are different levels of the AMGA but A. The general public doesn't see this B. There don't seem to be any rules regarding how the name "AMGA" is used. So how do people really know what they are getting?

-A certification is guarantee of sorts that the person being hired will do a good job but how do we know, as Tommy Boy has noted above, that the guide isn't "a crazy glue sniffer" that's going to knock up your daughter? The answer is; We don't. You have to trust whom you're hiring.

bearbreeder wrote: given that the best place to learn aint on the intrawebs ... i respectfully suggest that anyone who is serious gets a good anchor book, take a course, or at the very least join an alpine club i was almost killed by someone who learned something on the "internet"

It's a spec question, not a how to. This is totally valid for the internet.

bearbreeder wrote:i was almost killed by someone who learned something on the "internet"

I'm very interested in this story!

well everyone has something to SAY or spuay
FIRST NOT AN ENGLISH TEACHER OR WRITE GOOD GRAM
i have climb with the worst and the world best and Cert. Guides
NON cert. and non of them you name (americans) em none of em told me about techincal or any book or other than AMG BULLSHIT about TR anchor
you first have to understand proper gear place (bolts wiggets slings trees boulder etc ) that holds the rope. i have to date never every seen instruction on the belays, toprope, or any place on rock formation of how to. that why you back-up back-up backup......
also any climber who understands safety and likes them self should take there own safety first and not depend on someone or something (AMG)

rondopowell wrote:well everyone has something to SAY or spuay FIRST NOT AN ENGLISH TEACHER OR WRITE GOOD GRAM i have climb with the worst and the world best and Cert. Guides NON cert. and non of them you name (americans) em none of em told me about techincal or any book or other than AMG BULLSHIT about TR anchor you first have to understand proper gear place (bolts wiggets slings trees boulder etc ) that holds the rope. i have to date never every seen instruction on the belays, toprope, or any place on rock formation of how to. that why you back-up back-up backup...... also any climber who understands safety and likes them self should take there own safety first and not depend on someone or something (AMG)

If you cant speak or write English please do not bother to reply. No one can understand what you are trying to say so go find an internet forum in your language and post there...