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falling on trad gear...

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JEFFisNOTfunny · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 40

OK... I'm a new trad leader... I've taken several lessons from guides and from friends. And while I am comfortable and confident in my ability to place pro... I'm terrified of falling on it. When sport climbing I actually practiced falling. I practiced falling and I just fell... alot. It made a huge difference in my confidence climbing and it taught me to have faith in the safety system that I was using.

According to 9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes and The Rock Warriors Way... there comes a point to start practicing taking whips on gear...

How long after you guys began leading did you start falling on your placements??? How did you begin your "falling practice"??? And what got you over the hump of actually trusting your gear???

Thanks,

-jeff

a d · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Mar 2010 · Points: 5

I've never taken a practice fall on gear. I just fall.

rock-fencer · · Columbia, SC · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 265

the best way to deal with falling is dont fall. Either down climb or commit and send. This whole practice fall thing on gear is ridiculous. Did you practice crashing your car to learn how to deal with it should it happen while your driving (i hope it never does btw).

Just go climb.

I have fallen on gear obviously. It happens. I still don't trust my gear despite still being around.

Also do a search

JEFFisNOTfunny · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 40

Haha... I agree... no fall can ever be 100% safe, but I disagree with the concept of leaders never falling. I just want to start climbing some harder(for me) climbs. In order to do that... I realize that I will be taking the occasional fall. With a project, falling is part of the experience.

I just want to get comfortable before I go for a big ride.

Matt Hoffmann · · Squamish · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 190

I'm also in the "no intentional falls" group. Falling is a part of climbing and the more you climb, the more likely you are to take some falls. But, intentionally falling on gear seems more like a way to get hurt and stress your gear than to feel more confident. Gear shouldn't pull if placed correctly and there are no structural failures (gear or rock) but, I'd rather not run that risk.

My progression went something like this (after all the basics/top rope setup/etc):

-Seconding trad routes. Take a look at the placements. Ask the leader any questions you have. Discuss why this way not that way, why here, not there, etc

-Practice placing gear on the ground... a lot. Test it out in every way you can. Try funny placements. Figure out what works and what doesn't work. What walks and what doesn't walk.

-Mock leading placing gear while on a TR with an end trailing to clip to pieces. Have a solid leader (that you trust) rappel with you (single strand). Use a gri gri and a prussik (or other system) so you can totally let go and test the pieces to your hearts content.

-Start leading super easy stuff that you would never fall on. Get used to leading on gear.

-Slowly (slowly!) ramp up the difficulty. Eventually you'll fall. You probably won't be expecting it. Your gear should hold and you'll think... Huh... That wasn't so bad.

-Once you've gone through all this you probably have a decent idea of what placements you are comfortable with and what you aren't comfortable with (you won't always get placements you are comfortable with).

One other thought that helped me is that your gear is there as a backup. It is not your primary protection. Your primary protection is not falling. You only have to use your gear if your hands and feet fail you. (free climbing only and excluding anchors of course)

Not sure if that is helpful but, only in the past year or so have I felt comfortable enough to push the difficulty in trad which has resulted in more falling.

Daryl Allan · · Sierra Vista, AZ · Joined Sep 2006 · Points: 1,040

Watch Return to Sender a few times. I'm sure there's some other pertinent flicks but watching people whipping on c3's repeatedly should instill some confidence. Or that clip with Dedier (French/Swiss cat?) punishing that gear on Cobra Crack. I agree that practice falling on trad gear probably isn't the best decision. Cams, in particular, will show significant signs of wear; same thing with passive pro. Plus, it's like a last line of defense... think of it like a seat belt.

Sounds like you have no problem with the sensation of falling so maybe just expose yourself to some hard trad climbing and watch and/or belay some climbers climbing hard trad. Perhaps seeing gear hold repeatedly and following some routes to clean the gear would help some. If you do start cleaning these routes, note the placement (right down to the teeth/crystal placement), direction of the gear, depth of placement, size vs. other options. After you look it over, take it out, and re-place it. Try other placements and see why that one was better or ask about why something else you may see would not have been better.

Bottom line: just immerse yourself in gear placements. Learn from folks whipping on their gear. Follow them, belay them, buy them beer. You'll get there!

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
FrankPS wrote:So, Darren...has this subject ever been discussed before? :)
we could always link him to the Skeleton Key Thread...
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Darren Mabe wrote: we could always link him to the Skeleton Key Thread...
You mean the one thread that covers everything. snd nothing, at the same time? The Mother of All Threads? I get your drift...
generationfourth · · Irvine, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 10

As a new trad leader I'm assuming you will be climbing 5.7-5.9 primarily? Get some mileage at these grades and good an all types of climbing at these grades (run out slabs, crack, OW, etc).

IMO you should be learning about when not to fall at this point. Honestly on every single .8, .9 I've been on and even most 10- I never ever want to take a fall on any of that. Low angle slab, ledges, etc.

JEFFisNOTfunny · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 40

Wow... from that post... people are extremely divided.

I realize rationally... it works. I understand the physics behind it... But it is the irrational that always wins out. For instance the transition from indoor to outdoor sport climbing... I didn't trust the bolts at all. I did everything I possibly could to hold on and not fall including pulling on a draw... it made it so that when I finally took my first fall outside I was gripped. I was as run out as I had ever been and took the biggest fall I ever had at that point. But I would have made the climb without falling had I not been moving so timidly. I was slow and overly cautious which caused the fall.

I am looking to prevent this type of learning experience.

JEFFisNOTfunny · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 40

I think the idea of aiding a few pitches makes sense

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

haha Darren...could have probably just posted that link!!! :o)

Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241

If nobody has said it already, 'practice falling' on sport routes if you must. Or, just sport climb and fall as a consequence of pushing the grade. You'll have the whole falling thing wired. What more is there to learn?

If you don't trust your gear, you need more mileage. You need to know when to trust your gear and when you shouldn't and just falling on it is inviting disaster if you don't know that distinction.

JEFFisNOTfunny · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 40
generationfourth wrote:As a new trad leader I'm assuming you will be climbing 5.7-5.9 primarily? Get some mileage at these grades and good an all types of climbing at these grades (run out slabs, crack, OW, etc). IMO you should be learning about when not to fall at this point. Honestly on every single .8, .9 I've been on and even most 10- I never ever want to take a fall on any of that. Low angle slab, ledges, etc.
Honestly, I'm currently comfortable leading .6's... The idea of leading something like Modern Times (5.8) is pretty scary to me without having the confidence that my gear holds. 5.8's, 5.9's and up here, in the Gunks feel pretty steep to me.
H BL · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 95
alexdavis wrote:I've never taken a practice fall on gear. I just fall.
+1! I "Try" to live by the old leaders maxim of "the leader must not fall." Course that comes from the days of hemp ropes and hobnailed boots.
Alex Washburne · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 65

Hey Jeff

I think, at the end of the day, none of us wants to be the person who tells you where/how to go take falls and then read about you getting injured the next day, because the reality (as stated above) is that no fall is 100% safe, and I don't even wanna take a 0.1% of telling someone advice that would get them injured.

That said, I know exactly what you're talking about. Having the right mentality during a climb can be a real deal-breaker, and I remember when I felt that it was my mentality, my fear of falling on trad gear, that was the limiting factor for climbing harder trad routes. Here's what I did:

1)Aid climb, especially hard, safe aid (A2 is good) that can lead to a fall on a piece that you've already carefully inspected and weighted (and not some rushed piece that you've placed while absolutely pumped).

2) Climb in Indian Creek with cams up the arse, but recognize that there are some serious caveats about sandstone (as my limited understanding has it, you want to sew it up because pieces may be more likely to slip out/not grip when you fall). I took my first proper whipper in Indian Creek, and my second, and my third, and so on until I lost count. All of the falls were unintended, but they were all on fun, challenging climbs that sported perfectly parallel cracks that allow for much easier placements while pumped. I had no intention of falling at Indian Creek, but it happened and thankfully it was on beautifully parallel cracks on which protection is made easy.

3) Start leading on ice (some may rightfully say this is horrible advice. Don't do it if you don't want to ice climb and if you're not okay with the risks involved in climbing a medium that breaks and melts every single year). With me, I wanted to become a better alpine climber of all kinds, so learning to lead on ice a natural step after learning to trad lead on rock. After a full winter of climbing above screws, the thought of even a tiny nut placement sounded like Heaven to me. In fact, I started doing some mixed climbs and found that my confidence was boosted tremendously whenever I placed rock pro (mentally, I felt like I wasn't protected by screws, but once I slipped in a good nut I felt as if it were a bolt). Note that I never fell on ice screws (and I DON'T recommend that at all - bounce test at ground level to you heart's content, but there's absolutely no reason to risk it when you're higher up), and I haven't fallen period while leading on ice, but doing it made me a more confident leader on rock. Some may rightfully say that what I've said above is horrible advice, akin to saying "if you're not comfortable with the risk of trad climbing, then try riding motorcycles while drunk and blindfolded and you'll see that the risks of trad climbing are nothing in comparison." My advice here only makes sense if you want to get into ice climbing anyways, and then my advice amounts to what I'll say in point (5) - with time and more experience, your confidence will build even without having to take falls.

4) Learn how to project hard climbs without recklessly taking falls. I received this sage advice from a friend at a time when a bunch of nutcases all around me at the Gunks were (literally) telling me to jump off a cliff and expect everything to be alright every time. You don't need to fall to get the "send" mentality - just find a challenging, well-protected climb, and go until your pumped, place a piece, and sit to wait out the pump. The next time you come back, you'll have the pro and the beta dialed down, and when you finally send your project, you will have pushed yourself much harder above your protection than ever before, all without taking whippers for whippers' sake.

5) Take it slow. Unless you're in a rush to go pro or unless you have a terminal illness and want to free climb the Moonlight Buttress before you croak, there's no reason to hurry and there's every reason to take things slowly. You'll get more comfortable with time and continual exposure to the sharp end, even without taking falls, and your confidence will come from experience (and not bravado). I did this at the Gunks, where I climbed insane amounts of 5.6's until I was finally sick of (the albeit sandbagged) low grades. I stepped up to 5.7's and climbed those for a while until I felt that they, too, were too easy. Repeat for 5.8, 5.9, and now I'm in the phase of climbing 5.10's in the Gunks. Note: I went all the way to climbing Gunks 5.9 (or Rumney 5.10d) on trad without ever taking a fall, and it was over the course of 2 years of trad climbing. The best old adage to remember: there are old climbers and bold climbers, but no old, bold climbers.

Now, I checked out your profile and saw that you're a climber in the Gunks. I'm also in the NE (NJ right now) and I frequent the Gunks. It's a great place to get really good at leading trad, but it's also a great place to get persuaded to try unreasonably reckless things. I was AMAZED at how many Gunks climbers on the carriage road were recommending that I just take some whippers on despite knowing absolutely nothing about my experience. I'll be the angel on your other shoulder telling you to be a little careful with their advice, but I'll also give you some good projects for the grades you seem to be climbing. You can climb them, and if you get pumped then hopefully you can either place a piece and rest on it, or downclimb to your last piece and hang there while you recharge.

Something Interesting,5.7+ (easy if tall and if you have a fetish for tiny feet... I thought it was harder than Modern Times)

Double Crack 5.8 (beautiful, long, and well-protected the whole way. A GREAT route to project with clear communication with the belayer the whole way).

Modern Times 5.8+ (the first pitch can be a bit runout, if I remember correctly, but the second, crux pitch is VERY well protected with a nut/tricam in the often wet crack under the roof and beautiful cams through the roof... I think BD .5 and 1)

Ant's Line 5.9 (a great project - gear the whole way)
Bonnie's Roof 5.9 (same, though harder now that the intermediate anchor is missing... if you're feeling adventurous, the direct finish is AMAZING, and also very well protected)

Once you're looking to break into 5.10, I highly recommend Nosedive. I aided it in prep for a big wall trip and found that it's insanely well protected with ledges big enough for you to be stable and place super good pro yet small enough beneath steep-enough wall to avoid hitting on the way down. I came back and led it free, and felt incredibly safe the whole way. For some unsolicited beta: Before committing to the barn-door and crux roof at the top, you can climb the face on the right, and then stem on the shallow, right-facing corner to place a nut in a tapering crack in the corner at about chest-level. Then, once you've swung and committed to the crack, you can soon fit either a BD .4 from a finger lock at the base of the crack, or you can fit a .5 to a .75 (possibly to a 1) as you climb higher.

I hope this helps, and I hope you get strong while staying safe! Feel free to message me if you have any questions about climbs I've done/good stuff in the area.

Best,
Alex

JEFFisNOTfunny · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 40
Old Custer wrote:If nobody has said it already, 'practice falling' on sport routes if you must. Or, just sport climb and fall as a consequence of pushing the grade. You'll have the whole falling thing wired. What more is there to learn? If you don't trust your gear, you need more mileage. You need to know when to trust your gear and when you shouldn't and just falling on it is inviting disaster if you don't know that distinction.
I fall regularly while sport climbing... without falling, I'm not pushing myself to my limit. While I realize that with trad climbing, there are alot of "no-fall" zones, I still want to get a few falls out of the way, to get over MY issue with gear.

I have done alot of mock-leads and have taken many lessons from guides, and friends. I also have seconded and inspected gear and will continue to do so... as a normal part of climbing with friends. The rational side of my brain understands the physics behind gear placement...

I just have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that, that little piece of gear will stop my fat ass from falling... (just like when I first started sport climbing and didn't trust the strength of an anchor or a quickdraw... or like when first toproping... not trusting the rope.) It's all mental. I was just wondering how everyone else got over it.
MTN MIA · · Vail · Joined May 2006 · Points: 405

well the reality is "that little piece may not stop your fat ass"

JEFFisNOTfunny · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 40
Alex Washburne wrote:Hey Jeff I think, at the end of the day, none of us wants to be the person who tells you where/how to go take falls and then read about you getting injured the next day, because the reality (as stated above) is that no fall is 100% safe, and I don't even wanna take a 0.1% of telling someone advice that would get them injured. That said, I know exactly what you're talking about. Having the right mentality during a climb can be a real deal-breaker, and I remember when I felt that it was my mentality, my fear of falling on trad gear, that was the limiting factor for climbing harder trad routes. Here's what I did: 1)Aid climb, especially hard, safe aid (A2 is good) that can lead to a fall on a piece that you've already carefully inspected and weighted (and not some rushed piece that you've placed while absolutely pumped). 2) Climb in Indian Creek with cams up the arse, but recognize that there are some serious caveats about sandstone (as my limited understanding has it, you want to sew it up because pieces may be more likely to slip out/not grip when you fall). I took my first proper whipper in Indian Creek, and my second, and my third, and so on until I lost count. All of the falls were unintended, but they were all on fun, challenging climbs that sported perfectly parallel cracks that allow for much easier placements while pumped. I had no intention of falling at Indian Creek, but it happened and thankfully it was on beautifully parallel cracks on which protection is made easy. 3) Start leading on ice (some may rightfully say this is horrible advice. Don't do it if you don't want to ice climb and if you're not okay with the risks involved in climbing a medium that breaks and melts every single year). With me, I wanted to become a better alpine climber of all kinds, so learning to lead on ice a natural step after learning to trad lead on rock. After a full winter of climbing above screws, the thought of even a tiny nut placement sounded like Heaven to me. In fact, I started doing some mixed climbs and found that my confidence was boosted tremendously whenever I placed rock pro (mentally, I felt like I wasn't protected by screws, but once I slipped in a good nut I felt as if it were a bolt). Note that I never fell on ice screws (and I DON'T recommend that at all - bounce test at ground level to you heart's content, but there's absolutely no reason to risk it when you're higher up), and I haven't fallen period while leading on ice, but doing it made me a more confident leader on rock. Some may rightfully say that what I've said above is horrible advice, akin to saying "if you're not comfortable with the risk of trad climbing, then try riding motorcycles while drunk and blindfolded and you'll see that the risks of trad climbing are nothing in comparison." My advice here only makes sense if you want to get into ice climbing anyways, and then my advice amounts to what I'll say in point (5) - with time and more experience, your confidence will build even without having to take falls. 4) Learn how to project hard climbs without recklessly taking falls. I received this sage advice from a friend at a time when a bunch of nutcases all around me at the Gunks were (literally) telling me to jump off a cliff and expect everything to be alright every time. You don't need to fall to get the "send" mentality - just find a challenging, well-protected climb, and go until your pumped, place a piece, and sit to wait out the pump. The next time you come back, you'll have the pro and the beta dialed down, and when you finally send your project, you will have pushed yourself much harder above your protection than ever before, all without taking whippers for whippers' sake. 5) Take it slow. Unless you're in a rush to go pro or unless you have a terminal illness and want to free climb the Moonlight Buttress before you croak, there's no reason to hurry and there's every reason to take things slowly. You'll get more comfortable with time and continual exposure to the sharp end, even without taking falls, and your confidence will come from experience (and not bravado). I did this at the Gunks, where I climbed insane amounts of 5.6's until I was finally sick of (the albeit sandbagged) low grades. I stepped up to 5.7's and climbed those for a while until I felt that they, too, were too easy. Repeat for 5.8, 5.9, and now I'm in the phase of climbing 5.10's in the Gunks. Note: I went all the way to climbing Gunks 5.9 (or Rumney 5.10d) on trad without ever taking a fall, and it was over the course of 2 years of trad climbing. The best old adage to remember: there are old climbers and bold climbers, but no old, bold climbers. Now, I checked out your profile and saw that you're a climber in the Gunks. I'm also in the NE (NJ right now) and I frequent the Gunks. It's a great place to get really good at leading trad, but it's also a great place to get persuaded to try unreasonably reckless things. I was AMAZED at how many Gunks climbers on the carriage road were recommending that I just take some whippers on despite knowing absolutely nothing about my experience. I'll be the angel on your other shoulder telling you to be a little careful with their advice, but I'll also give you some good projects for the grades you seem to be climbing. You can climb them, and if you get pumped then hopefully you can either place a piece and rest on it, or downclimb to your last piece and hang there while you recharge. Something Interesting,5.7+ (easy if tall and if you have a fetish for tiny feet... I thought it was harder than Modern Times) Double Crack 5.8 (beautiful, long, and well-protected the whole way. A GREAT route to project with clear communication with the belayer the whole way). Modern Times 5.8+ (the first pitch can be a bit runout, if I remember correctly, but the second, crux pitch is VERY well protected with a nut/tricam in the often wet crack under the roof and beautiful cams through the roof... I think BD .5 and 1) Ant's Line 5.9 (a great project - gear the whole way) Bonnie's Roof 5.9 (same, though harder now that the intermediate anchor is missing... if you're feeling adventurous, the direct finish is AMAZING, and also very well protected) Once you're looking to break into 5.10, I highly recommend Nosedive. I aided it in prep for a big wall trip and found that it's insanely well protected with ledges big enough for you to be stable and place super good pro yet small enough beneath steep-enough wall to avoid hitting on the way down. I came back and led it free, and felt incredibly safe the whole way. For some unsolicited beta: Before committing to the barn-door and crux roof at the top, you can climb the face on the right, and then stem on the shallow, right-facing corner to place a nut in a tapering crack in the corner at about chest-level. Then, once you've swung and committed to the crack, you can soon fit either a BD .4 from a finger lock at the base of the crack, or you can fit a .5 to a .75 (possibly to a 1) as you climb higher. I hope this helps, and I hope you get strong while staying safe! Feel free to message me if you have any questions about climbs I've done/good stuff in the area. Best, Alex
Thanks... that was some great advice and route recommendations. While I understand your Ice climbing comments... I'm not into it yet.. but points #1 and #4 specificlly... start by trusting the gear to rest on it/aid with it... and go from there... I'll see ya in the Gunks.
Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
JEFFisNOTfunny wrote: I just have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that, that little piece of gear will stop my fat ass from falling...
The truly fun part is it won't always stop you. And you won't always be able to tell. Hope that helps!

Double up ;).
Larry S · · Easton, PA · Joined May 2010 · Points: 872
JEFFisNOTfunny wrote: I fall regularly while sport climbing... without falling, I'm not pushing myself to my limit. While I realize that with trad climbing, there are alot of "no-fall" zones, I still want to get a few falls out of the way, to get over MY issue with gear. I have done alot of mock-leads and have taken many lessons from guides, and friends. I also have seconded and inspected gear and will continue to do so... as a normal part of climbing with friends. The rational side of my brain understands the physics behind gear placement... I just have trouble wrapping my head around the fact that, that little piece of gear will stop my fat ass from falling... (just like when I first started sport climbing and didn't trust the strength of an anchor or a quickdraw... or like when first toproping... not trusting the rope.) It's all mental. I was just wondering how everyone else got over it.
I liked killis' advice about leading something over your head w/ a tr backup... pick a line that's got clean falls so you don't bust your ankles and go for it. That's what i did when i was brand new to leading. After that I didn't fall or push myself on gear for a long while. The reason was mostly that the climbs at the lower grades i was climbing at were not climbs that you could safely fall on, usually very featured or low angle, so I advanced really slowly thru those grades. Lately, my tactic has been to find a steep climb w/ good+ample gear, without any "no fall" zones, that is at my limit and go for it. (Maybe follow it once or ask for gear beta if you need a little extra confidence) Whether you fall or get it clean, you're pushing your mental limits on gear, and eventually you'll fall and get it over with.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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