Loose Anchor Bolts... Gank or Leave?

So a friend and I were climbing Moons of Pluto at Smith Rock - our sanctified local crag - and happened to find that one of the two bolts that created the anchor were loose. So loose you could remove the bolt by hand. We had ourselves a dilemma: tighten it up by hand and leave it or take it out. Mind you, this route was given 4/4 stars in the recent re-publication of Alan Watts' guidebook. And there are anchors about 10 feet to the left (for Screaming Yellow Zonkers, another 4-star route), which can be used to rappel and clean the route. The removal of the bolt doesn't seem to have had any negative effect on the route... aside from the easy traverse at the top. This hardware was not put in by us, obviously. However, we figured that if it got this loose without someone removing/fixing it, that it had been questionable for awhile. Hence, we should remove it so that no one else used said questionable bolt, and raise this very question.

Instead of stealing them, or leaving an unsafe anchor, why don't you do the right thing and replace them.....

iClimb5fun wrote:Instead of stealing them, or leaving an unsafe anchor, why don't you do the right thing and replace them.....

Do you normally carry a bolt kit and bolts on all your 10d sport routes? And do you normally accuse people who are concerned with other climbers' safety of "stealing" bolts?

iClimb5fun wrote:Instead of stealing them, or leaving an unsafe anchor, why don't you do the right thing and replace them.....

wow, lame post!

Are the nuts loose or the actual bolts? Are you saying that you can physically pull the bolt out of the rock with your hand?

The right thing to do is to let Eric at Redpoint know. He is the go-to guy for stuff like that. Or contact Mike Volk by visiting Contact Mike

This way if you aren't personally gonna replace it, it'll still get around the campfire and something will get done about it.

It is standard to tighten up a bolt here or there, that is why they make nut tools with wrenches built into the handle. Taking a bolt out without immediately replacing it is a bad idea. Why is there even a question about this?

Edit: I just read the route page for Moons of Pluto. You removed an anchor bolt without replacing it. What could have been and probably was a perfectly fine bolt in need of tightening was removed by you. What made you decide to take action, and only then ask questions about it being the right thing to do?

What are you going to do now to fix your mistake?

The OP said in his post, "So loose you could remove the bolt by hand."

That doesn't sound like just a little tightening would make it solid again. Sounds like a ticking time bomb to me.

alexdavis wrote:Are the nuts loose or the actual bolts? Are you saying that you can physically pull the bolt out of the rock with your hand?

The actual bolt was loose and the sleeve was wobbling around in the rock. We tried to screw it back in by hand, but it still seemed dangerous.

JoeR wrote:What are you going to do now to fix your mistake?

Wow. So, my nut tool doesn't have a wrench on the handle. Also, see above. I am open to the possibility that we were wrong in removing the bolt. We told the people nearby that we pulled it, and nobody made the suggestion that you have. Thank you - at least now we know where to initialize the replacement. Message sent to Mike.

Also, I want to emphasize that there is another anchor nearby that does not detract from the accessibility of either route!

If I were depending on a bolt being there, I'd rather have it gone than just look like it is there and not be solid.

Replace it!!! Remove the bolts, and at the first bolt put a red tag to let people know to stay off it. Next, if you don't have the knowhow find somone that will help replace them ASAP, most equipers will glad to help, ask around. If you have the knowhow, borrow the stuff to replace it, again most will be happy to lone the equipment in the name of safe climbing. If you can't find any one to help, go to your local climbing shop and let them know of your intent and they will probably be glad to find you the right person to help. No bolts are better than unsafe bolts that will hurt somone that are relying on them.

Oooh, it is a good question. What type of bolt was it? If it was a 5 piece then a wrench would have solved the problem. If it was a sleeve bolt or a wedge anchor and the entire thing comes out by hand then I think you should pull it out and tell folks that have a clue about it. You should also offer to help replace it as this burden should not be put on only a few folks.

As far as safety: Anyone with half a brain can do the traverse or lower down to the next bolt and leave a single biner on it which backs up the single point anchor that was left behind.

Iclimb5fun did have a lame post.

As far as not having a wrench in your pack. That is lame as well. So many folks take all this stuff for granted and take little or no responsibility in the maintaining of the routes. Get one with a 1/2 inch on one end and 9/16th on the other. This will cover most of what you come across. When you tighten them down, get them snug, then about a quarter turn more.

iClimb5fun wrote:Instead of stealing them, or leaving an unsafe anchor, why don't you do the right thing and replace them.....

Does Nate look like the twerp in the video stealing draws?

Guess it's time to replace my 1980 vintage Bill Forrest Nut Tool. (see photo) - the "oak addition" makes it possible to wail on the handle to loosen a stubborn Slider, Peck Cracker or MOAC Chock...
The wrench built in to the Metolius Torque Nut Tool - rei.com/product/809315/meto… gives me a reason to up-grade.

Question tho, does this wrench fit the bolt's nut despite the proximity of a bolt hanger? The 25 KN FIXE hangers that I use appear to leave a fair amount of room for such a tool, but I wonder if other hangers do, given the fact that the wrench-holes are located in the middle of the shaft of the Nut Tool. And I will miss my chubby oak "wailin' handle".

Some of you guys get your panties in a wad over such silly bolt issues.

The op did what he thought was best to prevent someone from using a poor bolt. Not everyone has the tools or knowledge to replace bolts not to mention not everyone returns to a given area. He also let the community know about it. Its not like someone is going to die. Any given leader will see there is only one bolt at the anchor and can act accordingly such as traverse to another anchor like he said or rap off the single bolt while still clipped to the bolt below for redundancy.

Move on people. This is not a gym.

This thread went south faster than a PAS thread.

Nate, thanks for sending an e-mail to Mike. I appreciate your trying to be proactive and realize that you have good intentions. Removing the bolt and red-tagging the route would be fine, I just would have liked a little more timeliness in making sure it gets fixed.

In the future I hope people will realize that a post on Mt. Project and telling whoever happens to be at the base is not really informing the community. Many climbers don't post or read forums. It is easy to forget this.

A phone call or direct e-mail is best, lacking that a stop at the local climbing store will do it. In this case you have to drive right by Redpoint when you leave. Maybe a note on the door?

Proactive communication is really key here.

Nate Ball wrote:So a friend and I were climbing Moons of Pluto at Smith Rock - our sanctified local crag - and happened to find that one of the two bolts that created the anchor were loose. So loose you could remove the bolt by hand. We had ourselves a dilemma: tighten it up by hand and leave it or take it out. Mind you, this route was given 4/4 stars in the recent re-publication of Alan Watts' guidebook. And there are anchors about 10 feet to the left (for Screaming Yellow Zonkers, another 4-star route), which can be used to rappel and clean the route. The removal of the bolt doesn't seem to have had any negative effect on the route... aside from the easy traverse at the top. This hardware was not put in by us, obviously. However, we figured that if it got this loose without someone removing/fixing it, that it had been questionable for awhile. Hence, we should remove it so that no one else used said questionable bolt, and raise this very question.

Did you leave a note at the bottom or let people figure out that a bolt was missing when the reached the top? That's a pretty good gag if you let them figure it out at the top.

Jonhy Q wrote: Did you leave a note at the bottom or let people figure out that a bolt was missing when the reached the top? That's a pretty good gag if you let them figure it out at the top.

Again, not a big deal. Figure it out. Get down safely. Is the climbing community really that dumb these days?

How would you red tag a route if you weren't planning on it? I sure as hell don't carry anything I could leave to mark a route without chalk hieroglyphics(actually couldn't so that either since i use a chalkball). I own a hand drill, roto hammer, have tons of bolts laying around, but i certainly never bring that stuff to a crag unless I know I need it. Can't say I ever bring a wrench sport climbing either, or a nut tool/wrench either.

Removing the bolt and telling about it afterwards seems fine if the bolt was really that loose. I'm ok with finger tightening and saying something if that works too, but you did the right things saying something.

The stealing accusation is pretty stupid though. The OP doesn't sound like the sort, and who reused bolts anyway? Hangers sure, but i'd really like to know who reuses expansions bolts so I can avoid those routes.

John Wilder wrote: yanking an anchor bolt is a bad idea on an established climb- people may be counting on that bolt being there.

You are really counting on a bolt that can be pulled out by hand??? Scary man. Sounds like you could use a mentor.

Greg D wrote: Is the climbing community really that dumb these days?

Obviously, yes.