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Rock climbing ethics from an origional Stone Master-Martin Veillon

GonnaBe · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 135

Mr. Stonemaster I salute you! This was almost a brilliant piece of self-promotion. What it lacked in faux humility it certainly made up for with blunt volume. I myself followed along riding the waves of disbelief and indignation upset with this "younger generation" and how we've lost the meaning of what climbing is all about. "Respecting the stone" right?!

That was your message right?!

Or should we expect the upcoming dates of your book tour to be posted here and on Supertaco in the upcoming days and weeks? I'll be watching Twitter for your tweets hashtagged with #stonemasterGod or #stoneMasterMessiah to show up if they haven't already.

Is respecting the FA about the route or is it about the FAer's ego? You've certainly got me thinking sir. Thank you.

Martin Veillon · · El Cajon, Calif. · Joined May 2012 · Points: 770

Wannabe, it's always about the Rock of which reveals the route to the 1st ascent person or persons and becons them to climb it but the Rock expects and deserves respect as it will be here long after we're gone.

As far as my ego I've always been a humble type person but I am a man of action and also a spectator of that which interests me and love to explore and/or be turned onto new things.

Example: my wife and I went to Mexico once to watch a bull fight and it was both wonderfull but the one thing I would like to see different is that they don't come out on horses (picadors) and lance the bull between the shoulder blades which clearly weakens him.
When they first let him out eveyone is running for cover as he knows this is his last day on earth and he's going to take out as many as he can on the way out.
We would love to see the matadors go up against them without the picadors-now that would be the show I'd pay to see.
American bullfighters dress up as rodeo clowns and take on the bulls full bore with no picks or swords, just athelitic skill and they do often get the crap kick out of them and they never kill the bull.
And that's the difference between trads vs. sports climbing.

My book hasn't yet begun as I'm still working but I'm retireing from my career next year and then I'll take the time to write it, along with the 2 symphonies in my mind.

And I've still have my eye of a few 1st ascents that I put off but now I'm back and getting ready to start climbing again late this year after I finish reblazing my trail system which is a great way to get the upper body back in shape.

If you're curious, see what I've posted and what's been replied on suppertopos website forum.
I will be posting my topos there very soon as I've remained hidden for too long as I'm not about ego and fan clubs.
Obiviously as almost no one has ever heard of me except for the people I've climbed with and what little was noted in the guidebooks by D. Kennedy and C. Hubbard but not with much favor and I just blew it off, but now am speaking out.

Perhaps one day I'll do a tour, make a movie of my life, do a book signing event, etc., or maybe I'll just live and not bother as I don't need a fan club, as my wife, son, grandkids are the only fan club I need-and I must not leave out our dog-he loves me too.

lewisslc · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

I am not from Southern California, so i apologize... i just can't help myself.....: "What?!?!?" I am so hopelessly confused by the above comment...Jesus... I don't think i have ever been this confused.....again: :WHAT? & HUH?

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

Bolting a crack is bad. Adding bolts to an existing trad climb without contacting the FA is bad.

Almost everything else that the "original stone master" has posted is either self promoting BS or weird off-topic detritus.

lewisslc · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0

WOW...guess it's good that i learned from an OSM that adding bolts to someone else's FA is bad...i might just have to buy the book to see what else i can learn... can i employ anyone to be my interpreter?

NC Rock Climber · · The Oven, AKA Phoenix · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 60

Gotta use it or lose it! I would have said "BS" (my go-to word for describing such things), but I had already used it to describe his self-promotion.

Seriously, I can't believe that this thread hasn't died. I keep expecting MV to post up and admit that this was all an elaborate troll. The alternative, that this is really how MV thinks and communicates, is kinda sad.

Martin Veillon · · El Cajon, Calif. · Joined May 2012 · Points: 770

While updating my topos right now I popped onto to see what's new and aren't we having fun?-I know I am.

I'm hoping that whomever put in the retro bolts will remove them rather than me taking the time to do so, but I will if they're still there when I finish my current task at hand of reblazing my trail system of which I welcome others to join in with me.

As far as self-premoting-hell yes I am because since no one else is doing this for me I need to so it may boost book sales once I've published.

But this project won't begin until after I retire next year so be patient as it will be worth the wait-I promise or else I wouldn't bother doing something that isn't worth the time.

Paul Davidson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 607
Martin Veillon wrote:As far as my ego I've always been a humble type person but... Perhaps one day I'll do a tour, make a movie of my life...
Internet Climbing is so full of contradictions as to almost make it worthwhile. At least it can be mildly entertaining.
Christian RodaoBack · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 1,486

"Stonemaster" Martin wrote: "..the useless, worthless people who are just taking up space."

That reminds me of a little man named Adolf.

NateHawke · · San Diego, Ca · Joined May 2012 · Points: 0

To Martin V:

I’m probably the guy you need to talk with about Descanso, as I was the one who retro-bolted all the climbs.
I understand you are planning on trying to remove all the FIXE 1/2in glue-ins that I placed—while I can somewhat understand your frustration and need to vent your anger, I do not think destroying an excellent climbing area, such as Descanso Crag, is a good idea. Try not to let your ego destroy Descanso as Art’s ego destroyed El Cajon Mt.
Regarding your routes: I lived in both Descanso and Pine Valley for nearly 3 years, and during that time I climbed in nearly all the East County crags, and at Descanso many, many times. When I first went to Descanso crag (only 8 mins from my house), it was in a poor state: Bolts were missing on the center wall routes from nearly all the starts; the right side had no suitable routes for beginning climbers (ie. 5.6-5.8); the left side Wave Wall was void of any hard climbing (5.13+ or above); the “complete” routes that remained at Descanso were protected by old, unsafe pins and 1980’s era, 1/4in button heads; the “anchors” of the climbable routes were merely Metolius rap anchors that were not close enough to the edge to facilitate reasonable TR anchors or rapping; and the access trail was in miserable shape—just to name a few problems with the area. Descanso, when I found it, was hardly a climbing area worthy of mention.
As a “local” of Descanso/Pine Valley, and an avid climber with 15+ years of climbing experience from around the US and internationally in sport, trad, and bouldering, I saw Descanso as an area that needed some love. I believe in supporting the climbing community by helping update and maintain crags so that future generations of climbers can safely enjoy the resource. As no one ‘owns’ Descanso crag, due to its location in the National Forest, the responsibility for safe keeping lies in the San Diego climbing community, of which I am an active member. After climbing at Descanso for a full year and asking people if anyone was ever going to update the cliff—to which the answer was always a resounding no—I elected to spend my own money, time, and effort to update the wall and make it safer, improve existing routes, add new routes, establish four 5.13+/5.14 sport routes, and do trail maintenance. In my opinion, and in the opinion of other climbers who have climbed at Descanso since I finished my work, the crag is a better place to climb for all levels of climbers—beginner to expert.
Regarding your particular climb called “Into the Eye of the Son”, I did add bolts to that line and also established a direct start and a variation from the termination of the crack, which then ascends to the upper right. You are correct that “your” line can take cams—it does nicely—but the line should be labeled appropriately as a ‘mixed’ climb because you cannot—as I am sure you know—climb this route free with only gear. Furthermore, if you look closely at the crack section, approximately 6 inches to the right of my glue-ins, you will see that someone once had bolted this crack—long before I ever arrived. There was precedence for the line to be a fully sport route before I updated it. As a principally ‘sport crag’, which Descanso most assuredly is, it seemed appropriate to updated this route so that climbers could enjoy the full wall without traditional gear.
Aside from adding harder lines to Descanso, I also added 7 climbs--with anchors with chains—that range from 5.6 to 5.13a, which opens Descanso Crag up to a wider range of SD climbers.
I also spent considerable time updating the trails, moving rocks to improve erosion prevention, and keeping the trails wide enough so that rattlesnakes can be spotted and avoided easily—as Descanso Crag is a natural habitat for rattlers, it was important for me to improve the trails so that people would not disturb the snakes in their nests around the base of the wall.
One of the last additions that I made was to add chains to the top of the wall in order to facilitate a more pleasant climbing experience for younger climbers who wish to lead, TR, and then clean the route without multiple hikes up and down the wall to get gear—again, now Descanso is a better climbing crag because of the anchor and trail updates.
If you are still angry about the retro-bolting and crag updates, feel free to email me and we can schedule an appointment to meet in person. My email is Nate@andramine.net
In the meantime, I suggest allowing Descanso Crag speak for itself: Does the climbing community, as a whole, enjoy the crag more now than before? If the answer is yes, then the answer about your chopping desires should be a definitive “absolutely not”.
Please think about the future generations of climbers before you decide to destroy an excellent crag to satisfy your ego.

NH

Martin Veillon · · El Cajon, Calif. · Joined May 2012 · Points: 770

Thanks for the history of what you've done at Descanso and I will contact you soon thru your provided e-mail address.

Yes, we should get together to discuss further why I have some agreements and disagreements to your reply.

No, I don't own the rock and I also don't consider Descanso as a "sports" climbing area although some have been added since the last climb I did there several years ago.

What I obiviously object to is the adding (retro-bolting) of bolts to the climbs I put up in traditional style.

I also put in one bolt on rappel on "Black Rattler" to see for myself what the new hype was all about as sports climbing was fairly new to Calif. at that time.
I found that this style was not satisfying for me and therefore stayed with old school methods.

As you'll also note, I have not tampered with anyone else's bolts and chains on climbs that I did not put up as the rock is for all to share.

If I and my other partners that are still alive were to consider ourselves as the "climbing community" for Descanso then we could find it OK to remove and/or add bolts to these other climbs-but then that would not satisfy us either.

It's obivious to me that we all need to play well together and this is possible as long as we respect the Rock first and the 1st ascent 2nd.

For example: when we first arrived at the main wall back in the 1980's, all that we could find established was what we refer to as "Space Ramp" that has only the one fixed piton at the crux.
We did not remove the piton nor add any other permanent pro as the climb was a work of art with the one piton.
A row of bolts and such would have ruined that climb from the perfection it is.
And had we found it with a row of bolts all the way up the crack we would have thought that it could have been done differently but we would not have chopped them but have wondered why would anyone put in a row of bolts next to a crack which would have surely taken away from the wonderfull climb it is with the one piton.

I have found a way to remove the epoxied in bolts but my primary focus right now is to continue work on the trail system.

Thanks for all your efforts on the trail as you have made my work easier for sure.

I will be replacing some of my old bolts with newer ones that need to be replaced.

And as expected, I will be removing the ones added to my 1st ascents to restore as much as possible the origional routes' artistic intent.

As noted before, I went thru much effort, thought, time, and discussions with others before adding a route to my topo as completed, as I did not want to just have several runnout climbs, but just a couple.

We could have left many of the climbs there without any bolts being added latter on and had numerous climbs with only dashed lines on paper.

A good example of such is "Snake Dike" on Half Dome that was put up by Jim Bridwell and others with major runnouts but then fixed pro later on added for the enjoyment of others.

As a Stone Master I must say that most often "Less is more!"...-and no, I did not give myself my nicknames, others did.

To climb a climb that has no need for any fixed pro is a wonderfull experience and to climb a climb that has as few bolts and fixed pro as possible is also wonderfull.

I want to climb my climbs the way I put them up and not have several bolts in my face while I'm putting in a nut or cam. - putting in pro is part of the art of climbing.

What needs to be done is for people to have a similar mindset.

After all, Descanso has always been a traditional climbing area since the day we first went there, but it can be shared as there is so much rock there, like a barely tapped Mt. Woodson.

I even once had the thought of going there and removing all of the bolts and fixed pro there, even the top-rope bolts and rap chains, etc.
Then it would once again be a virgin area again and sit back and wait to see the joy of when someone else would go there for their first time and see how they would treat the Rock.

I also thought after the last time I went and removed bolts from my climbs that I would remove the ones I added to my climbs that I put in at a latter time to escalate the complaints and whinning.
But that would be like what I've been accused of by some as all about my ego.

So let's get something straight right now people:
1-What ego?-I climb for the love of climbing only.
2-I don't own the Rock, but neither do you.
3-I don't tamper with other people's climbs and expect to be treated likewise.
4-I strive to put up climbs in good style with safety in mind but as we all know, there is risk in climbing and it is healthy to have some.
5-I'm not trying to tell people how to climb and protect climbs, but to have respect for each other or else nothing will ever work out and that would be bad for us all.
6-My climbs are my works of personal art and I love to share, so have at it and enjoy as I've found my "climbing soul" and hope all others do so as well.
7-I want World Peace and I want it NOW!!!-please help me with this-thanks.

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
Martin Veillon wrote:I'm not trying to tell people how to climb and protect climbs,..
really?

Martin Veillon wrote:I want to climb my climbs the way I put them up and not have several bolts in my face while I'm putting in a nut or cam... What needs to be done is for people to have a similar mindset.
however, perhaps Nate could have sought out Martin and discussed his want/'need' to retro the routes before he acted, out of respect for the early pioneers. this might be the biggest issue...
Alex Whitman · · Chattanooga · Joined Sep 2009 · Points: 440
NateHawke wrote:. As a principally ‘sport crag’, which Descanso most assuredly is, it seemed appropriate to updated this route so that climbers could enjoy the full wall without traditional gear. NH
Nope.
Jeff Chrisler · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 145

simply looking at one of the photos of one of the routes in question, i've gotta say i agree with martin on this one. it pains me to say it, because assuredly his long-windedness will come back to haunt us all, but it's clear that nate should have at least consulted him before throwing bolts in. who the hell cares if bolts had been there... you should have asked, and perhaps not put in so damn many!

oh, finally, this is getting good!

p.s. martin, you still haven't gotten any better at paragraphs- now, it's just too many

Martin Veillon · · El Cajon, Calif. · Joined May 2012 · Points: 770

No, I'm not angry anymore, that was just my initial gut reaction like if you went out to check the mail and found your car keyed.
Do you pay to fix it or live with the vandalizim?

I just want to climb again one day soon as I love it.

I sometimes now wish I hadn't added any other bolts later on to several of my climbs and should have left them the way I first did them.
But I didn't because I care about others as much as myself and added some for others.

What I think would be a good idea is to meet up at the next climbers meeting that I was invited to from Randy Leavitt and others on the last Tues. of the month-I didn't make the one on 5-29-2012 as we're packing and moving once again and thus busy.

At the meeting we could schedule a date and go to Descanso and review what's in place currently.
Then make a decision as to which fixed pro stays and which goes, which gets replaced, etc.
And then we should all agree to love and accept it.
I think the problem with that is that this would take the efforts of all 1st ascent parties and not all may be available.
I guess then we could just deal with the ones in attendence and leave the others alone or at least restore to the origional 1st ascent condition.

Would I want some removed or added to mine, not especially, but I have an open mind and would expect the same from others.

I've thought my climbs through and feel that they can't be improved but I expect some would say that I put in too many bolts on some, not enough on others and just the right amount on a couple.

But never can be ruined are the memories I have of putting the trial system up, letting the Rock show me the climbs and then doing them, the jokes and laughter with my son and other partners, the exploration and discovery and the joy of it all.

Now for the next bump in the road-who is the "climbing community" that should get to decide on this?
I'm thinking everyone but once again if all are not in attendance and/or agreement, then we learn to live with the majority vote?

I've heard about Eldorado Canyon in Colorado that has a committee that reviews new 1st ascent requests to discuss and decide on what and how much fixed pro goes in and such and that this seems to work well.

I sure miss the days when you just walked up to the Rock and climbed it.

I think a classic case in mind is when Royal Robbins and partner went up Warren Harrdings' and partner's "Dawn Wall" on El Cap and began to erase the route, then stopped and climbed it to the top and of all the lessons learned from that concern.

Now I know why Reinhold Messner was always against bolts and such.

So I still want World Peace, so please let's all work together on this-live, love and be happy. Works for me!!!

tom donnelly · · san diego · Joined Aug 2002 · Points: 364

I just want to thank you guys for staying civil and discussing it with cool heads.

Leavittator · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 161

I should have posted this here, but posted it a few weeks ago under route descriptions. I guess I don't spend much time on forums and posted it in the wrong spot. Anyway, I will post it here, although late. Martin and Nate - hopefully you guys can make the next meeting. I will be there, unless I am out of town. Randy

"Martin,

Thanks for your input and hard work on first ascents. There is a local "access fund" type of climbing organization that was formed here in San Diego (www.alliedclimbers.org). I am sure they would love to hear what you have to say. The meetings are the last Tuesday evening of every month (see website for specifics). Allied Climbers of San Diego have worked very hard on access issues throughout Southern California. This monthly meeting would be the perfect place for you to discuss your concerns. Just for a little background - The local climbing community is still reeling from a bolt chopper who left a lot of damage in his wake. However, the good news is that it left the climbing community unified as never before. So it is a pretty diverse group. Please bring you son and meet everyone :)
Regards, Randy Leavitt"

x15x15 · · Use Ignore Button · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 275
L G wrote: +1 for the updating. There are so many crags and routes that go unclimbed because some people erroneously feel that they have a right to impose their notion of risk or "style" upon others. We don't request permission from the workers that laid our pavement to install a new one or widen it, we just repair or upgrade as necessary to make it most useful. I think we can acknowledge the original construction effort, and then move forward. I don't feel that this is a threat to gear routes as the opportunities to lead on gear remain manifold and the crack still exists.
you're kidding? you should try to repair or upgrade public property pavement that was put in for the people. the enviromental studies, permits, and headaches are real. shucks, you can't even put up a sign on a roadway without approval. you're logic is full of holes.

but, getting back to your argument that upgrades are okay, i would like to know what is an upgrade, and whose call is it? I believe that bolt removal is the best upgrade that can be done. I want to be in charge. Screw tradition, history, and culture.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
L G wrote: +1 for the updating. There are so many crags and routes that go unclimbed because some people erroneously feel that they have a right to impose their notion of risk or "style" upon others. We don't request permission from the workers that laid our pavement to install a new one or widen it, we just repair or upgrade as necessary to make it most useful. I think we can acknowledge the original construction effort, and then move forward. I don't feel that this is a threat to gear routes as the opportunities to lead on gear remain manifold and the crack still exists.
Hey bro nobody imposed anything on you... Come on out to SB there are tons of routes bolted every five feet. Nothing wrong with wanting a safe route that you can't hurt yourself on. But leave those bold routes to those that are up to the challenge. Me, I love the run out. If you can truly climb at that grade then you will have confidence to finish, if you are trying to fall your way up a route you might want to pick a different one for that.

Leave the run out for those of us that love it.
Jeff L · · Valley of the Sun · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 35

Mr Hawke pointed out the real issue here. 1/4" button head bolts and purposefully hangerless bolts. Forget the "run outs." Mr Veillons reasoning for hanger less bolts? " To teach new climbers how to deal with this situation." If that is not the definition of inane, i don't know what is.

Bolting good cracks? sketchy grey area at best.

Some people should just not bolt.

I am glad Mr Veillon is not angry anymore because i took offense to his comment directed at myself that some people " are useless, worthless people who are just taking up space."

Its great to see the parties involved communicating.

BTW, just so nobody thinks i am some arm chair observer, my first foray to Descanso crag was in 1987. Yes I still climb.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern California
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