Veggie oil engine in Yosemite

Hey all. I'm entertaining the thought of getting a veggie oil/ biodiesel conversion van and was wondering if anyone had any experience taking one into the valley. Seems silly to ask, but would I have to worry about bears being drawn to the used veggie oil it's being run on?

Thanks in advance!

You should know that there's big difference between "veggie oil" and BioDiesel. The former is just filtered fat or oil, typically used fryer oil. It burns fine in the engine but the typical diesel engine won't start on it and it gets too thick in cold weather. So the engine needs to start/warm up and shut down on normal diesel fuel. In other words, you need two fuel tanks, and you switch to veggie oil once the vehicle is running. But it can often be had for free at fast food restaurants, cafeterias, etc. And as everyone points out, the exhaust smells like french fries.

BioDiesel is chemically modified oil (methyl esters, if you must know). You can do the chemistry in a garage or kitchen but I wouldn't recommend it. It is 100% suitable for use in place of diesel fuel in any diesel engine but is typically blended 20-80 with petroleum diesel to minimize the adverse cost impact.

Gunkiemike wrote:YIt is 100% suitable for use in place of diesel fuel in any diesel engine

That is not really true. Yes B100 will run in any vehicle, but you can damage the engine. I own a Jetta TDI and VW specifically says not to use bio diesel in concentrations greater than B5. My engine uses high grade, low ash synthetic engine oil that has a manufacturer rated lifespan of 30,000 miles. I believe the issue with using bio diesel is that it introduces oils into the engine oil that do not burn off. Petrol diesel does the same, but with petrol diesel the diesel oil burns off. Accordingly, if I were to use a high concentration bio diesel like B100, I would find that within a short period of time the engine oil would be contaminated and would need immediate replacement. Constantly replacing the engine oil in my vehicle is a bad idea because the majority of the oil related engine wear that occurs in my 2.0 TDI will occur in the first 2,000 miles of an engine oil change. It is not until after 2k miles that the wear actually starts to decrease. Furthermore, it is known that using biodiesel in a vehicle that uses a common rail fuel injection system can lead to injector damage. I am not going to explain why this is because frankly, I only have a very basic understanding. But I can provide you a link with a better explanation if you are a mechanic type.

The majority of diesel automobile manufacturers specifically forbid the use high concentration bio diesel fuel (greater than B5 or B20) in modern vehicles. However, pretty much any manufacturer will void the warranty on your engine if you damage the engine from using bio diesel unless they specifically say you can use B100. It is sad because bio diesel is a much better fuel than petrol diesel. You can actually drink bio diesel!

Now it is possible to do a B100 conversion on many vehicles. I do not know what that entails, but I know simply swapping petrol diesel out for B100 is not a good idea.

One of the main issues with veggie oil in diesel truck engines is the amount of fouling in the filters, injection pump and injectors. In colder weather, I've removed fuel filters clogged with solid grease more than once. While veggie oil will run a diesel engine just fine it doesn't lubricate the injection pump as well as petroleum based fuel, and those pumps are quite costly to repair or rebuild. If you're new to this, I'd recommend starting with the biofuel blends offered by retailers in the areas you plan to drive- they take ambient temperatures into account when blending their products. A friend of mine with a Jetta TDI had pretty much the exact same experience with his car as 20kN- there are some vehicles that lend themselves to biofuels better than others. The people running full size American vans and trucks with 6 and 7 liter V8 engines seem to have better luck doing this than most VW owners. One question worth asking yourself is do you want to save fuel or do you want to save money? Those two things might seem related, but they're not in every case.

To answer your question. I ran a greased out volkswagen in the valley for a year. The bears never touched my car... just really be careful about food as usual. I kept veg oil in my extra tank in my trunk all the time and not an issue. I kept my pump/filter combo in a large tupperware outside under my tent cabin and the bears hardly messed with that.. just a few tester bite marks on the plastic to see what it was. If you're rocking a van you are much more likely to get hit by a bear. They are smart and work on numbers and your average van has a high likely-hood of some food inside. It also matters where you park in the valley. In the main lots you are pretty safe against bear breaks and if you are sleeping inside they can smell you and stay away... ranger danger can smell you too though (careful). With a greased out van I wouldn't recommend parking in small outlying lots, like under el cap for the night. I learned that lesson in a non greased pickup truck with a camper shell. Parked under el cap for the night and even though we took out all of the food the bear broke into all 6 cars that were parked there for the night. not worth the risk of damage and towing fees. Good times and good luck!

I ran B20-B100 in my Jetta TDI (2000 model year) for about 8 years without much of a problem. I'd run B20 (and sometimes diesel) in the winter 'cause the B100 would gel up, but B100 is just fine with the following caveats:

--running B50 or greater will eat away your rubber hoses over time so you gotta replace them with Viton which doesn't get eaten. You can just wait 'til they start to leak and replace them, but it's a pretty simple job to do.

--running B50 or greater will eat away your rubber O-rings (!!) in your injector pump over time, but at least in my car, it was a cheap and easy fix to replace those with Viton too.

--Depending on your source of biodiesel, you can get more particulates and thus your fuel filter will clog sooner than regular diesel. Blue Sun in Colorado is really good quality fuel, I'm not sure if they're in other states though. Using a good, quality fuel filter is pretty important if you're running home-made B100 'cause it's just not as good quality as the mass-produced stuff. But, even with a bad batch of mass-produced stuff, the filter will just clog before any damage to the actual engine happens. (I tried running a batch of a friend's home-made biodiesel once which just clogged the filter, not damage).

AND, the benefits:
--Running Diesel with mixed driving I usually got about 42MPG, B20 gave me slightly higher -- about 45, and B100 would usually get me really close to 50MPG.

--Biodiesel is supposedly more lubricating than diesel and so your engine should last longer. There's a study from some trucking company that compared their trucks running Bio vs regular diesel and the bio ones needed less maintenance in the long run (other than the upfront Viton stuff).

--Also, the whole better for the environment is kinda debatable -- it produces fewer greenhouse gasses (better for the whole earth) but produces more particulate pollution (i.e. soot) so you're polluting local rivers and streams, etc. One of the really good things about living in Colorado was the the stuff from BlueSun was grown, 'refined, and sold all in-state (and on areas of land unsuitable for food crops)...

RE: 20kN, that seems strange that the oil wold be contaminated from the fuel you use -- shouldn't the fuel and oil be separated? I know that Jetta diesels run pretty hot so that if you use the wrong oil it looks all black and gross pretty quickly, but I'm not sure it's bad for anything.

Hope that helps! There's some great info on the TDIclub website.
Cheers,
Adam

20 kN wrote: ...the majority of the oil related engine wear that occurs in my 2.0 TDI will occur in the first 2,000 miles of an engine oil change. It is not until after 2k miles that the wear actually starts to decrease.

I'm real curious how you established this.

Engine wear measurement is tough to do, and you resolving it to increments of 1000 miles or less is a stretch for me to believe.

Diesel engines' oil-related wear is generally attributed, within the engine and lubricant industries at least, to accumulation of soot in the oil. This gets WORSE with time, and is (along with depletion of alkaline reserve) a major determinant of oil change interval.

The comments above re. elastomer effects (hoses and O-rings) and injector wear are good points that I forgot. Bio fuels (of all kinds) lack the aromatic hydrocarbons and native sulfur compounds that provide elastomer swell and lubricity, respectively, to prevent these issues.

AJS wrote:RE: 20kN, that seems strange that the oil would be contaminated from the fuel you use -- shouldn't the fuel and oil be separated?

Good question! Piston engines have rings on the pistons that keep the compression up (compression rings) and the crankcase/combustion mix down (oil rings)- the better the seal between the rings and the cylinder walls the less mixing of all that stuff. They haven't been able to completely eliminate the mixing, though, because you need some crankcase oil between the rings and the cylinder walls to lubricate them so they don't grind themselves away prematurely. This in turn means that whatever you use as fuel mixes in with the crankcase oil- even in a new engine (though to a lesser degree). That's why people shopping for used vehicles often ask about the amount of oil burning taking place- it's one indicator of how much internal wear an engine has... the more oil burned and/or fuel-oil mixing, the more likely the engine will need major work soon.

Sorry, didn't tell you where to suck it up. If you introduce yourself to some employees at the Lodge or at the awahnee they would probably be down to give you access... you just have to pull into the delivery areas to get to the grease. Its not the best stuff... pretty animal fatty but it drives. again luck be with you.

AJS wrote:I ran B20-B100 in my Jetta TDI (2000 model year) for about 8 years without much of a problem. I'd run B20 (and sometimes diesel) in the winter 'cause the B100 would gel up, but B100 is just fine with the following caveats:

As far as why you cannot use B100 in a new TDI, read here:

forums.tdiclub.com/showthre…

and here:

myturbodiesel.com/1000q/vw-…

It also talks about the oil dilution thing I referenced.

Ya, the newer TDI are way too complicated for me -- my 2000 was totaled this past winter (hit while parked on the road the first snow storm of the season) and I've since moved on to an '87 Toyota Truck. That thing ticks like a clock and I can practically stand in the engine bay!

(sorry for the thread drift)

To the OP -- if it's a late-model van/car it's probably safe to use B20-B50 biodiesel. Okay for your vehicle, and no french fry smells!

20 kN wrote: and here: myturbodiesel.com/1000q/vw-… It also talks about the oil dilution thing I referenced.

That site uses the term "biodiesel" when they are really talking about un-modified veggie oil. Read the bit about higher boiling points, for example. True BioDiesel (the methyl esters) has LOWER b.p. than petroleum diesel.

IMO the mis-use of the term biodiesel is the largest single impediment to it expanded use as a fuel supplement for compression-ignition engines.

The bears are probably far more likely to be attracted to the smell of patchouli than veggie oil.