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Oversticking a friend's cam

DexterRutecki · · Cincinnati, Ohio · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 0
johnL wrote: In 17 years of climbing, guess how many times this has come up? Maybe I should have rephrased my response to say "only climb with competent solid people". A girl who I'd had sex with a couple times that day already got one of my #1's stuck last year. She begged me to let her replace it. How do you think I answered? A friend (who was not a romantic partner) got a bike of mine stolen once because she left it unlocked. When she offered to replace it, again same answer. If climbing is about nuts and bolts and the finances to pay for them, you're not really seeing the forest for the trees or whatever. Sounds lonely and bitter to me but what do I know, I'm typing this in the dark and drinking alone.
Dude a chick got your bike stolen cause SHE left it unlocked and you didnt care? You sound like the nicest dude ever, can I borrow your bike?

Seriously must have been a shitty bike or a really hot girl... I would be pretty pissed if my friend let me bike get stolen due to their own stupidity.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
johnL wrote:Now go have a few beers and put it behind you, fucking whiner.
John's answer is awesome. I only quoted the ending part, but that about does it. Now if you insist on buying your friend a new cam, just sneak it onto his rack when he's not looking.
Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520
jcurl wrote:johnL = Miss Manners
Ha ha ha! More like Savage Love. DTMFA!
Bobby Hanson · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2001 · Points: 1,230
johnL wrote:The unspoken rule is that the non owner, whether he placed it or failed to remove it, sincerely offers to replace the cam. Note that I said sincerely, say it and mean it, and follow through if pushed. Also note that I said replace, not buy. Grab the same thing off your rack and hand it over. If you are the (former) owner of the cam, you turn down the offer politely and again, you mean it. You come up with excuses like it's old, you didn't like it, or even if it's brand new that it'll give you reason to talk to that hot chick who works at REI. Say whatever you have to but do not accept your friends cam. Now go have a few beers and put it behind you, fucking whiner.
John's response mirrors my feelings on the matter exactly. Ask yourself this question:
Would I rather have this object or this friend?
APBT1976 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 55

If i let you borrow my truck with a full tank of gas and it comes back with anything less than a full tank you dam well had bet i will not be loaning you my truck again.

Its kinda like if you really have to ask and it is not just a knee jerk reaction then?

What does a piece of gear really cost at the end of the day. I would think most would want to replace it?

Aaron Olson · · Seattle, WA · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 5

You got to split it. You both agreed to do the climb therefore you both agree to the consequences, especially if that means splitting the cost of replacing gear.

Elena Sera Jose · · colorado · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 350

I am all about gear maybe to an extreme but climbing is my life no kids so that's where cash is going its my passion but if I had caused someone financial damage intentionally or unintentionally (overcammed piece due to limited trad experience) it would be a matter of principal to repay the person ....that's just the way I am. Blessed with a chill lifestyle and a steady employment in this great country I put life and limb above and beyond cha ching maybe it's idealistic

Ray Pinpillage · · West Egg · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 180
APBT1976 wrote:If i let you borrow my truck with a full tank of gas and it comes back with anything less than a full tank you dam well had bet i will not be loaning you my truck again. Its kinda like if you really have to ask and it is not just a knee jerk reaction then? What does a piece of gear really cost at the end of the day. I would think most would want to replace it?
I know that in the course of climbing there are consumables, cams are one of them. If my partner got one of my cams stuck (or dropped it) and offered to pay for it I'd probably decline the offer. However, if my partner didn't say anything I wouldn't climb with them again. It isn't about the money, it's about respect and responsibility.

Here's an example. Last weekend went climbing several hundred miles from home base. I brought all the group gear (including stove fuel), did all the driving, and provided the car. My only stated expectation was that climbing partner pays for half the gas (we left with a full tank). We did the climb and it came time for this person to chip in for gas and he started arguing about how to calculate that half of the gas. I paid for the difference between what he'd pay and a full tank and then decided to never climb with that person again. If there is so little respect or responsibility that your partner can't own his/her share then they shouldn't be your partner. However, I don't generally ask friends to pay up for an accident when they don't try to skate out from under responsibility or try to ignore it.

And I certainly wouldn't grind someone about paying up,there's nothing worse than a nickle and dime motherfucker.
Elena Sera Jose · · colorado · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 350

Some people due to their lack of employment or financial situation will not contribute much and I got myself in a situation (car accident) with people I hardly knew that lets say could have gone better ...but lessons learned im better prepared myself for future endeavours that is not to say things cant get out if control but that all depends on a situation...usually things work themselves out in the end

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

a real friend will cover any hardships they caused someone ... its that simple

last season i dropped one of my partners sling and biners, he offered to split it ... i said no effing way its my fault and i gave him the equivalent or better biners and slings off my rack that day

i have partners who are less than financially secure and work hard for every piece ... they cant really afford so be losing gear and not having their partners replace it ...

its simply having the respect for yr partners property ... if you arent a person who has such, then im going to make my "asshole" statement again ... dont climb with me ... i do drive people and do let them climb on my gear when they have none, most are appreciative of it and dont take advantage ... however ive dumped a partner or two who werent

Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415
johnL wrote: A girl who I'd had sex with a couple times that day already got one of my #1's stuck last year. She begged me to let her replace it. How do you think I answered? A friend (who was not a romantic partner) got a bike of mine stolen once because she left it unlocked. When she offered to replace it, again same answer.
DexterRutecki wrote: Dude a chick got your bike stolen cause SHE left it unlocked and you didnt care? You sound like the nicest dude ever, can I borrow your bike? Seriously must have been a shitty bike or a really hot girl... I would be pretty pissed if my friend let me bike get stolen due to their own stupidity.
Dude, read it again.

Between the lines.

He left out the "answer" he gave them. It was obviously "Get on your knees..."
dougie2008 · · Boulder · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 0

I am pretty new to the trad scene but in my experience climbing I have had a draw dropped on a sidewalk from ~50 feet up and my backup atc dropped from just shy of 100 feet up. I harped both people after they offered to replace it, "I see how it is dropping my shit". but I never made them replace them... they just bought the first round that night.

I would rather have a climbing partner that drops things occasional then have to climb alone. I like the idea of just slipping a replacement into someones rack...

sarcasm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 445

Wow, I didn't realize this would cause such lengthy discussion. I was never going to ask for my .75 cam back from my friend. He has been a great climbing partner and I didn't really care one way or the other. I posted this question just out of curiosity of what the supposed 'norm' is in this kind of situation.

This guy taught me to tie a figure eight knot 2 and a half years ago, taught me to belay, showed me how to build anchors, spent weeks and weeks with me instructing me on ice, went on a five day ice climbing trip, went on a week long Red Rock trip, and continues to climb and teach me today all out of his love for this sport. I clearly DON'T CARE if he lost a cam of mine on accident.

All of that being said I met up with him tonight at our climbing gym for a session of practice. We climbed for awhile and as we were packing up and without any other words he tossed me a .75 he had brought with him. He's a class act and judging by the majority of the comments he acted in a way that most of you agree with. Thanks for all the comments.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

I'd offer to replace it if I got it stuck or dropped it, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to do the same. At the end of the day we're talking about, what, 50 bucks? That's not nearly enough money forme to get upset about. If I had a partner that continued to losemy gear w.o replacing it, i'd ditch him cuz he's an idiot, but not because othe money.

Dom Caron · · Welsford, New Brunswick Canada · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,370

He should replace it. Everyone has different ethics on stuff like that but I know (or think I know) that the ppl I climb with would offer to replace it. This would be after having worked on getting the cam out for at least 30 mins each.

camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240

John's answer nails it. Don't climb with people who are likely to get your gear stuck, but don't make a big deal of it when it happens. The only exception is that sometimes, when I've done longer climbs where it is likely we may lose or leave gear, we make a pre-climb agreement that whatever gets lost, both of us split the cost 50/50, no matter who loses it.

Also, when cragging, I usually prefer someone who has gotten my gear stuck to just let me go tinker with it, so that if it gets stuck worse, I'm the one who is responsible.

Bob Dobalina · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 140

If you get a friends gear stuck or drop it, you should replace it (or at least offer!) If I had a partner that just shrugged his shoulders when that happened, I'd never climb with him again!

I dropped a biner full of (my partners) micro nuts on a wall once. Before we even got home, I had stopped off at a climbing shop where I payed full retail to replace the gear I had lost.

And once, my partner ended up getting a cam of mine stuck on a pitch. He ended up handing over one of his off of his rack as soon as we had finished the climb.

mcarizona · · Flag · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 180

Stich: "Now if you insist on buying your friend a new cam, just sneak it onto his rack when he's not looking. "

I had to sneak a biner onto my friend's rack because he wouldn't accept a replacement when I dropped one off the elephant's trunk. Now (kinda funny) I see it all the time and almost get it back when we sort gear. I like the 'enjoy a pint' idea though, seems like a lot less pressure.

Steve

1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101

If I am using a tool of yours and break or lose it I will replace it. I expect the same from my friends. People I climb with would offer to replace it. I cannot imagine not offering to replace it. As long as someone offers they are good. Don't offer and you will be on a different list. Some friends as is the case with this thread have given so much I would never ask for them to replace it. I would also be surprised if they didn't offer to replace it.

I think I will start offering trad classes to hot female climbers. Thanks John, your contributions are invaluable.

Jeff Thomas · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 0

If we're on a road trip in my car, my buddy is driving and we get in an accident, there's no way I'm gonna ask him to fork over the deductible. If he offers to split it, that's cool, but I'm not gonna ask for it. (It helps that I have a low deductible)

If my buddy borrows my car and gets in an accident. I'll ask him to cover the deductible.

If someone gets your gear stuck while you're climbing with them. Then just chalk it up to the cost of climbing. Gear gets stuck, dropped, and just generally lost from time to time.

If someone borrows my gear and gets it stuck, then I'd expect them to cover it. Whether or not I ask them to do so depends on who they are.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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