Who Trails the Rope?

This is usually a situational question, however, what do you find yourself doing more often and why? Can anyone share any wisdom here?

In my understanding these are the options for a party of two on a route where two ropes are needed for descent:
Option 1:
Leader trails the tag line, clipped to a haul loop with a something-on-a-bight.
Pros: Second can untangle the rope if it becomes stuck as they second the pitch.
Cons: Leader bears the load and struggles through difficult moves

Option 2: Second trails the tag, clipped the same way
Pros: leader doesn't have to deal with the weight
Cons: Rope might get stuck?

Option 3: Second carries the tag, coiled in the bottom of a pack to make rope maagement easier (as suggested in Heidi Pesterfield's "Traditional Lead Climbing".

This past winter in Castle Valley we climbed Ancient Art, Sister Superior, and Castleton in a weekend and the second exclusively trailed the rope. What would you have done? What should I do in the Black Canyon? What have you done in Yosemite Valley?

Thanks for the tips!
-Dylan Weldin

Why a second rope in the black?

In most situations that require a second rope I prefer the leader tag scenario you describe. A 70 adds a reasonable margin of safety in a lot of cases where you don't plan to need 2 ropes unless unexpectedly bailing.

I'm all about the second tagging the rope. I personally hate leading with a tag line, especially if the rope is free hanging. Definitely takes a toll on what I can climb.

Option 4:
Climb with doubles/twin ropes.

Not that I prefer this, but it is an option.

Also, another con for #2 is that it's annoying to other parties on popular routes. I personally prefer #3 for both leading and following.

bag wrote:Why a second rope in the black?

Good call... The whole "top down" thing is foreign to me. Replace "Black Canyon" with "Cirque of The Towers". However, I think a second rope in the Black could still be a good idea if one were to get in over one's head and wanted to make bailing a little less expensive and/or humiliating.

Climb with a double rope system. Tagging a line is a PITA, carrying it in a pack is heavy and unnecessary. Plus when I climb the second usually has a pack with water and jackets.

In my experience tagging a rope along can get dangerous. A little wind on a winding route can get it tangled fast, which puts the leader or the second in a bad spot. It took once for the rope I was tagging to get tangled while I was on lead to swear that technique off.

Double ropes avoid the danger of tangling, are (IMO) safer to climb on, minimize rope drag, make rappelling easy, and you can split up the load on the approach.

John Wilder wrote:if you cant stand leading with a tag (which is silly- get a thin line and its no big deal), have the second put it on their back. dont trail it- that just screams epic and/or rude.

Thanks for your perspective. Hadn't thought about other parties...

The rope trailer usually trails the rope.

If I need two ropes I use 7.8 twins.

I most prefer Option 4: Doubles/Twins. If you are going to carry two ropes, you might as well use both of them.

Another awesome alternative is a modification to option 1. Use a skinny single as the lead line. Leader also trails a 7mm tag line, with a mini-traxion to go with it. When leader sets the anchor and puts the second on belay on the lead-line (with a reverso), leader also hangs the mini-trax on the anchor and uses it to haul the pack. hauling and belaying at the same time is reasonably easy, provided that you use a reverso/guide and a mini trax, so that both systems are hands-free. Pack should be pretty light, since it is just a 1:1 haul on a 7 mm cord. This method is great for steep, difficult free routes that are long enough that you need food, water, jacket, etc., yet are difficult enough that climbing with a pack is not practical. This is certainly a specialized system. I wouldn't use it for a 5.7 ridge in the Tetons, but it works great on an 8 pitch 5.12 in Squamish. It is best on steep (even overhanging) lines with clean rock; i.e. nothing to knock off or get stuck on. I don't think it slows the party down on difficult climbs, since it allows both leader and second to climb unencumbered.

Another option, neglected thus far, is to only bring 1 rope. Sure, there are plenty of roues where you will definitely rap off (such as towers), and some of these require the ability to to full 60 meter raps (i.e. have two ropes). But there are not as many of these routes as people assume; a lot of the time you can use a bit of trickery and get by with one rope. The time and weight savings of only one rope can, in many situations, more than make up for the nuisance of having to do an extra rap or two. This is especially true now that 70 and 80 meter ropes are common; if you need to do 40 meter raps, an 80 will work, and one 80 m rope is usually lighter and easier to handle than 2 60 meter ropes.

This is, again, not true for all routes, but I always make sure to think twice before I bring a second rope, and try to determine if I can get by with 1.

If you need two ropes (route has a 2-rope rappel descent) get twins. Anything else is just a bullshit work-around. Period.

But in the black- I usually only take one rope. If you need to retreat, you're screwed anyway. Is it really worth carrying/dealing with an extra 20-30 lbs of rope to turn 9 raps into 5 raps? It's not like there's belay anchors in the Black that you have to reach with each rappel....

Now if you're on a route with set belays that need two ropes to reach between each should you need to retreat- then once again, get some twins.

Dylan Weldin wrote: This past winter in Castle Valley we climbed Ancient Art, Sister Superior, and Castleton in a weekend and the second exclusively trailed the rope. What would you have done? What should I do in the Black Canyon? What have you done in Yosemite Valley? Thanks for the tips! -Dylan Weldin

All these routes can be rapped with a single 70m rope.

Here's something I always found as a distinct benefit to the leader trailing a tagline on routes I've done in Yose, on the Hulk, and everywhere else- on long, hard free routes in the alpine where you're popping your shoes off at the belay, throwing on a puffy, etc... it signals the second to start getting ready when they see the tagline start heading up.

Also, it alleviates the need for verbal communication (never been a big fan of belay commands). The second sees the tagline heading up and they know the leader's at the next anchor/ledge/etc... and off belay.

Too many variables to say one way or the other, like you said "situational".

For example:

Multipitch, or just a long cragging route >35m?
Red Rock with tons of flakes and chickenhead for the rope to snag, or a Valley slab with nary a protrusion in sight?
Similarly, windy or calm?
Ice or alpine, or sunny rock?
At your limit, or well within it?
Are you taking a pack up the route?
How do you feel about 5mm pull lines that you don't rap on?

In most cases for me, leader trails the line. But I've done it lots of other ways...climb more pitches of something else to get to a walkoff, used a 5.5mm pull line and rapped the single lead line, used twins on ice/alpine, had the second trail on a 40m cragging route at my limit with nothing to hang up on, pulled the lead line through the pro, dropped it back down and tagged up the second line.

JLP wrote:Double/Twin = noobs on easier routes. Look at pix of the stronger climbers on harder lines here on MP.com and see what those with an oz of experience are actually doing, possibly on routes you are interested in this season. Gear up accordingly.

Obviously we should all climb with the same systems & gear as the pros - NOT. Also I've seen plenty of shots of pros climbing hard routes with doubles/twins, just not hard sport routes.

Double/Twin = alpine routes, ice climbing, routes with high rope drag potential, other special situations (linking pitches w/ 70m doubles, which is way more practical in terms of drag then with a 70m single).

I've found bringing doubles over a tag line convenient in a lot of ways, but it is pretty situational if you are too put off by the extra rope management and slightly greater total weight of a single rope (assuming no tag line)

i would recommend against a walk-off descent of Castleton

I usually prefer the leader tag for reasons already given by others (second can untangle if needed, etc). I use an 8mm static line and it weighs virtually nothing.

A couple times we've had the second tag the line. This typically occurred only on a straight, steep route with no snag terrain, a perfectly piled rope to feed out with no attendant, and no parties coming up behind.

I almost always climb on doubles, and don't consider myself a NOOB!!

LeeAB wrote: All these routes can be rapped with a single 70m rope.

In fact, they can all be rapped with a single 60m rope!

Maybe that's the lesson...instead of having any one at all trail the rope, get better beta instead?

the follower carries the rope, no question really