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Climbing Ethics and the Climbing Organizations

Original Post
Andrew Arredondo · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 175

In general I believe the climbing community as a whole is not only very dedicated to their sport, but also some of the greatest, genuinely nice people around. I am an undergrad Environment and Sustainability major going into my senior year at the University of Utah, and I am planning on going to law school after that. Because of this I think a lot about climbing ethics, and all that that entails...

The other day I was talking to an older climber and environmental lawyer about how I feel the climbing community is environmentally conscious (for the most part) and care a lot about the areas we climb. He agreed about climbers being nice and all that but disagreed with their dedication to the environment, siting the fact that the Access Fund is constantly fighting for monetary support and that a great deal of climbers aren't members of organizations such as the Access Fund or the American Alpine Club.

This was kind of a surprise to me, I figured most people would at least make a donation to the Access Fund... maybe I am wrong. So I was wondering how many MP members donate to AF, AAC, MP, local groups, etc. and what your beliefs about the environment with regards to climbing?

I don't mean to initiate a classic Proj flame thread or anything, I am just curious what other people think about these issues and why or why don't you donate/join these groups?

Alex Quitiquit · · Salt Lake City · Joined May 2011 · Points: 195

I'm just gonna do this to get it out of the way so I can be the first to troll...

Environmental protection is for suckers! Dey took our jobS!!!

Andrew Arredondo · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 175

Shut up Alex, no one likes you ;) should have known you'd be the first to reply you MountainTroll.

Alex Quitiquit · · Salt Lake City · Joined May 2011 · Points: 195

No, but seriously, I also believe that climbers have a kind of elitist approach to their environmental consciousness. I only say this because I've had conversations with climbers who will constantly spray about their beliefs in sustainability and protectionism, all the while letting their dogs defecate all over and leave litter at the crag. It seems that some peoples mentality of "green" advocacy only goes as far as their personal, seemingly trendy, belief in the great outdoors. Their seems to be limited pragmatic work being done, which is fair to say may contribute to the fact that organizations such as the AF struggle financially.

And to extend the argument even further, I would further submit that because climbing is inherently a "selfish" sport, not to say in the traditional sense or to the disadvantage of anyone else, but it's done for the individual, by the individual. This disconnect to the immersion of someone into the natural world may be cause to the inability for climbers to pony up for the greater good.

That and we are all dirtbags. IDK

Michael John Gray · · Queensbury, NY · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 765

I am getting olderish.. 30's now and been climbing since early 20's. I always took an interest in climbing ethics. Although I just started being a member of the access fund a couple years ago and will be for the rest of my life. I would like membership to the AAC but finding the extra cash is hard. Real hard... I guess thats the main reason I have not donated earlier in my climbing career. Lack of money. Not that I did not want to. I always pick up trash when I can and definately a leave no trace outdoorsman and always have been. I have done some adopt a crag work but not really official adopt a crag. More like me and a bunch of friends fixing trails that exist and cleaning up and climbing. Hope you find the answers you are looking for.

Michael John Gray · · Queensbury, NY · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 765

I would disagree with the last poster. I participated in the Arizona Mountaineering Club clean ups at Queen Creek Canyon and have friends that have been donating and members of AAC and AF for a long long time. I do believe most climbers care a considerable amount about the environment. A big part of why I climb and pretty much everyone I climb with is to get out into the wilderness. Also, a big part of climbing is community and everyone can't do everything but if everyone does something a lot gets done. You have to find your climbing community where ever you are. I found climbing communities throughout the country that were involved officially and or unofficially with the local climbing and keeping it environmentally sound for our future.

Andrew Arredondo · · Salt Lake City · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 175

Be it a local group like the Salt Lake Climber's Alliance, or a national group such as AAC or AF, I believe something as simple as volunteering at an adopt a crag function or even attending an event is a worthy endeavor. Give money if you can, if not, thats fine, it's that you care that counts I think.

Absolutely there are some dick elitest climbers who just think they are entitled to do whatever they like, but I don't think that everyone fits into that category. In fact I think only a select few climbers do. That is why I believe climbers are mostly environmentally conscious, practice LNT rules, clean up after their dog, etc.

I just hope that climbers aren't taking nature for granted - When you go climbing you are interacting with nature in a way thats totally different then when you are in a park or something, I think you should be respectful. I almost feel that there is something spiritual about climbing, it frees your mind of stress and makes you live in the moment more than anything else I know.

I feel like most people on this site would agree that supporting climbing organizations is important, but it might be because we are all climbing nerds that troll the internet for beta, I think we may have a bit of an addiction...

Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415

Lessen your environmental impact - kill yourself.

Guarantees you won't waste any more resources.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

I think your friend is right on - an overwhelming majority of climbers do not regularly support any organization. I'll go one step further and say that it is my opinion that at best, one of every two climbers even thinks about the environment, ethics, impact, etc. Hell, most people I meet don't even care enough to figure out where the bolts come from and who takes care of their local areas, let alone how they can help.

I regularly contribute to the Carolina Climbers Coalition and The American Alpine Club, and I have made substantial donations of my time and money to help with the situation in Thailand. I have also just recently moved to the UK, thus I have become a member of the British Mountaineering Council. I also try to support local communities and climbing organizations when I climb at certain areas (Friends of Indian Creek, New River Alliance of Climbers, etc).

The way I see it, I'm gonna spend my money somewhere. If it can go to a good cause and help offset some of my impact on these areas and/or make them better in the future, I'm all for it. I kept my membership in the CCC fairly regularly, even when I was living in Thailand and earning Thai Baht.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

For the people that are saying they can't find the money: I'd be interested to know what kind of cell phone bill you have every month. Cable bill?

1Eric Rhicard · · Tucson · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 10,101

+1 to what Ryan said. How much do you spend on Starbucks, on beer of dinner out? All of these only give something to the porcelain throne. We take the resource for granted.

Adam Kimmerly · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2005 · Points: 355

OK, shameless plug for our San Diego organization that continually works hard to strike the right balance between recreation and preservation.
Allied Climbers of San Diego

I think organizations like ours need to do a better job of marketing. We need to let people know what we do with their 15 bucks each year. But really, what we need even more than your spare change is your support and help. Step up to volunteer when opportunities arise. Help organize cleanups. Offer to act as a liaison with a land manager. When you see a problem, step up and be willing to do more than just announcing it Access Fund or local organization. We're all busy and would rather be climbing, but those that make a difference are the ones that step up and make the time to help out.

Eamon Doyle · · Sierra Madre, CA · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 5

My experience is that many people who participate in outdoor activities simply don't realize the amount of effort required to maintain trails and help reduce impact on the environment. I'd imagine many climbers fall into this group, as well as a lot of hikers, bikers, and runners.

There's also the occasional jerk who just doesn't care or thinks they are entitled to everything, but I think most people just don't have the experience to realize what it takes to do upkeep on public outdoor areas and parks.

But, thank goodness for the people and groups who do focus on helping out.

Eamon

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Ryan Williams wrote:For the people that are saying they can't find the money: I'd be interested to know what kind of cell phone bill you have every month. Cable bill?
I'll get back to this but first to answer the posed question - I am a 35+ year member of the aac and a sporadic - but more often then not - member of the Access Fund. But I know I am in the minority of the over all climbing population - although defining "climber" is a hopeless rathole. Once a month at the gym? They think they are...

But do suggest that the average climber is environmentally conscious is ludicrous. The averge climber thinks placing a bolt - a few ounces of steel on a dead rock, or empty oxygen bottles on the south col of Everest (where they are doing mno damage, or dogs crapping at the crag - hello animals crap in the woods - its called fertilizer, are "ethical" issues worth getting riled about. But suggest that private vehicles be banned from the Valley or question what the human cost of their latest iGadget is - and they will have a hissyfit.
Derek M · · VA · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 100
Eric Engberg wrote:The averge climber thinks placing a bolt - a few ounces of steel on a dead rock, or empty oxygen bottles on the south col of Everest (where they are doing mno damage, or dogs crapping at the crag - hello animals crap in the woods - its called fertilizer, are "ethical" issues worth getting riled about. But suggest that private vehicles be banned from the Valley or question what the human cost of their latest iGadget is - and they will have a hissyfit.
I would agree with Eric in the sense that climbing is a pretty high impact sport thanks to long drives and cliff base erosion. An environmentally conscious climber would of course recognize these impacts and try to minimize them while climbing and offset them in other lifestyle choices, but I'm not sure how far AF membership goes in accomplishing this. The older climber is probably right, but his choice of measure is a little weird.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665

Last I knew, the Access Fund had < 2% market penetration. Closer to 1%.
Their total budget is about $1M per year. That's it.
Yep... so less than 1/50 climbers give them a dime.
Not all dirtbags are living out of their cars.

The BCC, the local climbing org in Boulder (which admittedly just started up), only has 25 paid members more than 1/3 of those are on the board.
We had a slideshow/event last night, and 200+ people showed up. I was told that just one signed on.

That said, the AF teaches/preaches/practices "green" stuff, but it is more about Access than anything.

Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989

I admit, I'm not now a member of the Access Fund. It was the AF or NPR, and (for now) NPR needed it more in my area.

I like being a member in the sense that it gives me warm fuzzies, but simply paying the money is slacktivism, one step up from signing an online petition. Again though, when I had the money to support a non-profit, it was support the AF, or support NPR.

Even so, I can't claim to be making a difference just by spending money. I have to be out on a shovel, or out with a trash bag, cleaning it up. I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't.

A couple of things to keep in mind about people at large, and climbers in particular:

First, everybody believes their actions to be justified while they are doing them. Otherwise they wouldn't do them.

Second, climbers, as a group, are now too diverse culturually, politically, economically, and ethnically for anyone to *expect* a specific view (even one as vague as "protecting the environment is a worthwhile goal") to be held by even a simple majority. That is, the era of the monolithic climber culture went out with disco.

Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Brian Scoggins wrote: ... Even so, I can't claim to be making a difference just by spending money. I have to be out on a shovel, or out with a trash bag, cleaning it up. I'm ashamed to admit, I haven't.
Well,
We've got all the opportunity for that in the world too. "Adopt a Crag" events are all over.
We've been lucky in Boulder that trail/crag day like events are drawing a good sized crowd when pimped out with social events and beer and such.
But while 50 people is a lot of people, it is frequently 1/2 my pals and 1/2 the GP showing up... and it's still only 1% of the local climbing population.
There is an upcoming crag day at Castle on Friday 5/11/12 after work. If anyone else is feeling the need to pitch in, RSVP to me for details.
Jim Gloeckler · · Denver, Colo. · Joined Jul 2004 · Points: 25

I don't mean to be negative, but since when is it anyone's business where I spend my money?

The environment is being affected by many things, climber or not.

I think that if you are really into access, then give to the Access Fund.

Mike Anderson · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 3,265

I think it's a shame that more climbers aren't active in the larger community, but I think there are legitimate explanations for this (not excuses, just explanations). The sport attracts people with certain predispositions (low-income, narcissistic, anti-social) that make it unlikely they would be socially conscientious.

That said, I think many of these organizations could do a much better job encouraging partcipation/donation. I think the AF and other groups could raise a lot of money if they were willing to be a little more tacky with their fundraising, such as publishing who is donating what, and making it a status symbol to give more. This would essentially harness the power of climbers' egos...what more potent force is there?

The Southeast Climbers Coalition does this every time they are trying to buy a crag and they are able to raise tens of thousands of dollars in a matter of days by conducting what is essentially a public bidding war on the internet. This was proposed to the RRGCC and the Board's response was "publishing donations isn't fair because so many people give in other was [trail work, organizing events, etc]". OK, but those people are recongized constantly, so why not recognize people who make donations?

As far as supporting local organizations, I think that is great, but it is critical that we have a strong national lobby. If you pay attention to the way politics work now in this country, that is the ONLY way to ensure continued access to climbing. Do you think the NRA would have the power it has in this country if it were only a hodge-podge of grass roots gun clubs?

PS, I've been an AF and AAC member since the mid-90's, I participate in trail days, fundrasing events and make cash donations.

Forthright · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 110
David Sahalie wrote:i donate time and money to a local access and maintenance group. I appreciate what AF does but feel that my local donations have a far bigger impact on what I access.
+1
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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