Any lawyer-climbers out there?

So I'm getting ready to graduate from law school and begin studying for the bar, and I'm curious to see if there are any lawyers in the bunch? If so, what type of practice? Have you had any opportunities to handle a climbing-related matter?

Hey! In law-school currently. It is incredibly boring, but I have hopes that the next two years will be better. How was handling climbing/studies while in school??

I haven't climbed in 2 weeks now and I'm goin' nuts

Bad news- finishing up my 2L year, and it might get a bit less boring but its a lot more work. That being said, I've climbed more in law school than I ever did before- but I think that is more to do with going to CU Boulder than any sort of healthy work-life balancing advice.

Ben Botelho wrote:Hey! In law-school currently. It is incredibly boring, but I have hopes that the next two years will be better. How was handling climbing/studies while in school?? I haven't climbed in 2 weeks now and I'm goin' nuts

Ben Botelho wrote:Hey! In law-school currently. It is incredibly boring, but I have hopes that the next two years will be better. How was handling climbing/studies while in school?? I haven't climbed in 2 weeks now and I'm goin' nuts

I'm not able to climb too much... I would say that I've averaged about 1.7 days per month over the last 3 years. Hopefully I can bump that up after the bar.

I finished law school just under a year ago and now work for a small non-profit in Arizona that does deportation defense with detained immigrants. I love it--so far: pretty even mixture of client contact and legal research/writing, it's work I feel passionately about, and I'm never bored. (I'm also the only male on staff which would be more interesting if I wasn't married and my wife didn't also work here!)

Working 60-70 hours a week and climbing about 2 times a month, but the hours should come down a bit as time goes on. In law school I climbed once or twice a month first year, and then usually once a week 2nd and 3rd year.

No climbing-related cases yet; we did have one sky-diver though :)

A longtime fixture in the local climbing community in Tucson, (and a MP user), Scott McNamara is an attorney and climber. I am pretty sure he handled an anchor in wilderness case a few years back.

Charles Vernon wrote:No climbing-related cases yet; we did have one sky-diver though :)

Hold on...did someone skydive across the border??? Please say yes.

JonnyGreenlee wrote:Bad news- finishing up my 2L year, and it might get a bit less boring but its a lot more work. That being said, I've climbed more in law school than I ever did before- but I think that is more to do with going to CU Boulder than any sort of healthy work-life balancing advice.

Interesting. It was nice to pick my own classes for next year, so now I have some things that will actually interest me, rather than put me to sleep like Contracts or Civpro...

I also have climbed more than I ever have in my life since I started law-school, but it is probably because I am 2 hrs from the 'Dacks and have a good friend who is always down to climb. Coming from Western NY (Corning/Keuka Lake), I am much closer to some good climbing than I ever was

I'm a lawyer.

I work in-house.

Opportunities to climb are quite dependent on where you live.

I lived in Boulder for 16 years and now I live in Salt Lake, so it's easier for me to climb than it would be for someone who lives and works in New York City, Chicago, etc.

I'm a Boulder-based attorney who just took the bar last year. Here's my take on the situation:

1) 3L year is the worst of all. Not because it's difficult, but because you feel like you should have graduated already.

2) Study and take the bar the summer after school, just get it over with and pull it off like a band-aid.

3) Don't buy into the bar-hype. The prep classes (Barbri, et. al.) try to convince you that you need to be doing 20 hours of studying a day which isn't the case. Everyone has their own methods, but just keep in mind, you don't have to be an Con Law expert to pass the Con Law section of the bar. You just have to pass, not get an A.

4) Finding a job: Be creative. In today's market, simply going to a firm/agency's website and sending in an application won't get you anywhere. Build a book of business first, be willing to do whatever work you have to. Law school doesn't teach how to be a lawyer, so you're going to have to convince an attorney you're someone worth teaching.

5). Climbing: This is a weird subject because it's going to depend on a lot of things. If you want to be an associate at a big firm, you probably will work 80 hours a week and not get much climbing in. If you work for a government agency, non-profit, etc., you'll likely work 9-5, M-F, and make decent, although not great money. I found a situation that really worked for me by being a hybrid associate/solo practitioner. Basically, when I graduated, my networking skills far exceeded my lawyering skills. The result was I got a bunch of clients to sign with me, I just didn't know how to do what they were asking for. The solution was I went into a small firm and proposed that I work for them 20 hours a week for a salary supporting them and learning the ropes of legal practice and the other 20 hours a week, I would spend working on my own clients and keep 50% of that business. Basically, I traded them 50% of the revenue from my clients in exchange for office space, a modest salary (just to get some certain income), malpractice insurance, and a practical legal education. The result has been an incredibly flexible schedule that allows me to make as much or as little money as I want. I feel like I got really lucky making this happen but it's also the result of my creativity in knowing what the ideal situation was and setting it up so that I was able to achieve it. Granted, I live in Boulder so the easy access to climbing allows me to get out very often, both to the gym and outdoors.

In response to your climbing-related issue question, I have a few points. There are many non-profits that use attorneys that deal with climbing issues (i.e. the Access Fund, Colorado Mountain Club, AAC, etc.) I also know a handful of private attorneys in Boulder who deal with recreational issues (NOLS main attorney, Access Fund's attorney, etc.) I also know a personal injury attorney who frequently litigates ski resort and climbing gym injury cases. Finally, I have some friends who went to work for the Forest Service, the BLM, or the National Park Service and they have some overlap with climbers in terms of resource planning and mixed use plans. On the private sector side of things, most climbers 1) don't have the money to afford an attorney and 2) don't really see the law as the best avenue for them to get a resolution to their issue. So I would say if you want to do climbing related work, either try to intern for a recreational attorney like a NOLS attorney or similar or with a government agency that deals with public lands. Honestly though, I studied environmental law almost exclusively in school, applied at all the climbing non-profits and government agencies, and even worked in that space for a short time and didn't really enjoy it. Keep an open mind; as an attorney with an environmental background, I never saw myself doing business law. However, once I got started helping clients start their business, go public, get financing, etc. has been very educational, exciting, and most surprisingly, rewarding.

Long story short, figure out what you want first. Are you a family man or are you a dirtbag? Are you a blend of both? Do you need a lot or a little money? Do you need to work in a field that are passionate about or are you willing to put your own feelings aside and just want your work situation to be favorable even if the substance of the work isn't great? Once you figure out the answers to these questions, you'll be in a much better position to start planning everything else out. If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me.

Sorry, I know this is a bit of a thread drift into managing the climber/lawyer lifestyle, but here goes. I joined the commercial/IP litigation group of a largish international law firm directly out of law school. While it is one of the few that emphasized the importance of life outside of work, if I had been climbing it would have been difficult to accommodate both. In my third year I worked 90 days straight, 10-16 hours a day. Part of that was there was too much work, part if it was some twisted definition of self importance where I felt that being busy made me important. I quit shortly thereafter. However, I really liked the people and enjoyed the work (just not so much of it) so I ultimately went back and now work on a contractor basis for them. I make substantially less money, but I also have the free time I require and the work is interesting.

Six years ago a co-worker introduced me to climbing. The ensuing addiction likely would not have permitted both the big-firm associate track and climbing to co-exist. However, having established myself as a good attorney with a group of people I liked working with, I was able to find a creative solution to my climbing needs. As others have said, identify your priorities and make decisions based on them.

No climbing related cases here.

Charles, I, too, want to know if they skydived across the border....

I'm an associate at a big firm in the SE doing IP related work. The work-life balance of a big firm definitely does not lend itself to climbing super hard or often but it's possible to get out occasionally. I climbed the most 3L year because I stacked my schedule such that I was hardly ever in class. No climbing related cases yet.

I graduated law school in 1990. While I initially worked at a large law firm in downtown LA (and managed to climb most weekends--didn't hurt that another lawyer there climbed too), I burned out on the hours, quit, traveled around Asia and chilled for a long while and eventually started working with a non-profit.

Those jobs can be very dependent on funding. While it was very gratifying, despite the really low pay, I have to move on when the funds for my position dryed up. I decided to hang out my own shingle and have been pretty successful and have a good reputation with the local bar as being a knowledgeable practitioner who's not an a$#hole to deal with.

I managed a fair bit of climbing during law school, which is actually when I was probably my strongest, and also a fair bit even while working at the large firm. Climbed the Captain a couple of times, lots of day trips to Josh and Tahquitz and weekend trips to the Sierra. It was actually marriage and kids that turned me into fat dad.

A lot of very successful people are (or were) climbers. I believe the drive that made them strong climbers provided the same fuel for reaching success in other fields. Don't fear the law because you want to climb more (unless you have a perverse desire to work at a large firm with high billables). Strive to find balance with work and life and you'll find plenty of time to climb. Just hold off on having kids if that's something you want to do.

Edit: though I did products liability stuff at the big firm, I never got to work on anything climbing related. The closest I got was a little volunteer work for the Access Fund.

TheBirdman wrote:If you want to be an associate at a big firm, you probably will work 80 hours a week and not get much climbing in. If you work for a government agency, non-profit, etc., you'll likely work 9-5, M-F, and make decent, although not great money.

I think that's a pretty fair statement. I practiced natural resources law (nothing related to climbing) for a state agency for ~23 years and, while preparing for the occasional trial required a more intense effort, free week-ends were the norm. I think working for a fairly small firm with other people who also want to have a life outside law can work well too.

Be aware that, if you work for a government agency, it may have a policy against doing volunteer legal work.

I work for a small firm, and generally have weekends free for outdoor climbing and weeknights for hitting the gym. I'm also fortunate in that my work has a bit of travel that has led to climbing trips.

Jay Perry wrote:I am an attorney and have been practicing law for about 1.5 years. I am a solo-practictioner (www.jayperryattorney.net) and do mostly criminal defense. It's great being your own boss and seems like the best way to have good quality of life (i.e. time to climb, be with family, etc.). I also am gaining lots of experience that you don't necessarily get being an associate at a firm, i.e. I've already have a few jury trials. I don't climb as much as I did in law school, but that is as much because I'm interested in other things. If anyone is considering hanging a shingle after law school, I'd be glad to pass along any advice.

You're a lawyer? Hmmm... ;)

Ryan Williams wrote: You're a lawyer? Hmmm... ;)

He's off the clock. If you want it reviewed, he's going to need a retainer...

Good luck with finals, bar, and finding a job!

Today is my last day of law school and could not be more psyched! Let me know if you find that dream job where you work 8 months a year, 4 days a week, and 8 hours a day.

dannl wrote: Hold on...did someone skydive across the border??? Please say yes.

Yeah, and I think he said his name was Bear Girls, or something weird like that?

Just kidding, I'm afraid it wasn't anything so sexy as sky-diving across the border. Merely a professional skydiver who overstayed his visa.

Congrats on your upcoming graduation! I am a patent attorney and I have been practicing for three years now. First I worked in a small (~10 attorneys) firm and now I’m working in a smaller mid-sized firm (~40 attorneys). As a patent prosecutor, my job is mostly 9-5, except for the occasional provisional application filing that is rushed. Mostly every weekend is free, and I’ve been able to do a lot of climbing trips. Also, my firm is pretty laid back and we can come and go as we please, so I’m often able to take extra days for the weekends and usually get a few week-long climbing or diving trips in each year. It's great being involved in climbing as a patent attorney (I work in electrical/software/mechanical fields) because I get to meet a lot of very technical people (mostly engineers), and have gotten some good networking from the climbing community.

So far I haven’t had any paid climbing related work, but I would love to patent some climbing equipment! I have provided some pro bono consultation to outdoor groups regarding tort liability, waivers, etc.

Regarding the advice about studying for the bar exam, I agree that you should figure out what works best for you and not buy into the study-constantly mentality. If you’re decently solid in law school, you should have no problem on most state bars. I attended barbri and did a fair amount of studying, although not nearly as much as others in the class, and ended up doing very well. After getting my scores back, I regretted not doing more climbing that summer.

Spent 8 years at 2 big international firms. Workaholism, money, and the climbers I knew got good while I worked nights and weekends and traveled most of the time. I wised up. Became a prosecutor. Now instead of yakking about someday trying cases, I try them. A lot. And i get to help people who have been horribly wronged, trying to secure a little slice of justice for them. Also, I have time to climb. I even have bosses who encourage it. And guess what? Assistant DA's get to work in places like flagstaff, Moab, or bishop where firms just don't go. I wouldn't trade it.....good luck