Lost control of belay of the second on Rewritten, 3-31-12

Mike N wrote:I thought Rewritten was closed (Top pitches) due to rapture closures?

Rapture closures? Is that when people are making out at belay stances? Oh wait, I guess you meant raptor closures... that's just the area right of Naked Edge.

Rgold wrote - Don't forget a released autoblock can easily send the second for a big ride (we had a groundfall in the Gunks from that scenario

Mitch Musci wrote: Can you elaborate on this specific issue?

In the incident Rich is referring to, the belayer released the ATC Guide incorrectly. Rather than pulling on the small hole, he hauled upwards on the blocking biner. This effectively took the belay device out of the action, leaving nothing but the blocking biner now acting as a pulley. Down went the second.

Martin le Roux wrote: Rapture closures? Is that when people are making out at belay stances? Oh wait, I guess you meant raptor closures... that's just the area right of Naked Edge.

To further take this off-topic, I don't think the Rapture has anything to do with making out... unless that is your plan for when the world ends......

Dave Swink wrote:Ryan, Sorry, I obviously was not clear by posting the two quotes from you. My participation in this post has been limited to trying to learn the pros/cons and the when/wheres to belay from the anchor or my harness. Frankly, although I have belayed with both techniques, my experience is not deep enough to have much to contribute after rgold and JLP have posted. The input from many of the posts, including yours, has been very enlightening. I was quoting you to point out that you were taking Jeff's rhetorical expression about "shuddering" and returning it as a personal insult, and frankly that is just going to slow down a valuable thread. Your points about not applying hard & fast rules were excellent, but your post stands on its own without that kind of aggressive response. Edit: OK, so my expansion of my post took way too long and Ryan pretty much fixed it. Please ignore me.

If you don't call me out, someone else will have to ;)

Gunkiemike wrote:Rgold wrote - Don't forget a released autoblock can easily send the second for a big ride (we had a groundfall in the Gunks from that scenario In the incident Rich is referring to, the belayer released the ATC Guide incorrectly. Rather than pulling on the small hole, he hauled upwards on the blocking biner. This effectively took the belay device out of the action, leaving nothing but the blocking biner now acting as a pulley. Down went the second.

This is actually the best way to release the ATC Guide IF AND ONLY IF you've put a munter hitch on your belay loop. This allows lowering through the biner (now acting as a pully). This is how I was taught and it seems a lot easier than messing with the little hole and trying to control the rope w/o a munter.

I ALWAYS belay off my harness. And ALWAYS (almost) with a gri-gri.

nick frazee wrote: +1, It DOUBLES the force, in my opinion this in not "just another variable" but a MAJOR variable.

Ok. So TR loads get doubled.

Not quite because of friction at the redirect biner, at lead gear placements and rope on rock friction. 1.67 times is commonly used in calculations but it varies with rope, biner, angles, etc.

So,

Example: If your partner weighs 200 lbs and you keep the rope taut, that's only 334lbs. Of course a slack belay would result in a higher load. And, since people are so excited about auto blocks which allow you to pick your nose and not really pay attention (safer though?) more slack belays are common. So maybe the load might be 500lbs or lets get crazy... 700lbs. Oh shit. Is your anchor not able to handle this load? In that case you may want to put yourself between the anchor and the follower to protect the anchor (known as ABC: anchor, belay, climber). But wait. Many people think this is bad! In this case you must use the TTGBTSC (time to go back to sport climbing). Just a little sarcasm to help make a point. Don't get your panties in a bunch!

Ryan Williams wrote: I really don't think I'm being a douche.

Who ever does?

Copperhead wrote: Who ever does?

Well, sometimes I do. But only if I think the other guy is a douche, and needs a rhetorical bitch slap. Salves my conscience AND lets off steam...

im a gumbay ... but rgold certainly aint and neither is this guy whos belaying with a gri gri off his harness ....

id love to see some MPer try to tell Mr. Croft how he should belay ;)

One situation that hasn't been discussed yet regarding belaying off your harness vs belaying off the anchor is...the next pitch! I will typically spend the extra time it takes to equalize 3 pieces and belay off the anchor, so that when it's time for the following pitch, I feel good (err, as good as one can feel) about potentially catching a factor 2 fall on that same anchor.

Actually I find it a bit worrisome how many people are stressing that bomber belay anchors can't always be found. Right we get it, there are those times when shit is hitting the fan or you're on some obscure adventure climb or whatever...and even your belay anchor is questionable. Seriously though, if you are not finding bombproof belay anchors you should really be taking a second or third look at all of your options.

Been climbing for 40 years and belay through my harness about 99.99% of the time. Bottom line, you are either a good belayer or your aren't. Don't climb with people who aren't good belayers.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:Been climbing for 40 years and belay through my harness about 99.99% of the time. Bottom line, you are either a good belayer or your aren't. Don't climb with people who aren't good belayers.

I just don't fall. That falling thing is overrated

johnL wrote:2. It was another mysteriously out of control Cinch accident. These devices work great until they don't. Unlike a gri, if something causes them not to rotate into locking position, there isn't enough friction to stop a fall with your brake hand, even with gloves. You are completely reliant on the Cinch rotating and catching.

Is it common for people to top belay off the harness with a Cinch? It seems sketchy for the reason you mentioned, way too easy for the rotation to get blocked by a leg or other obstacle (especially if the belayer is sitting).

Mitch Musci wrote:Seriously though, if you are not finding bombproof belay anchors you should really be taking a second or third look at all of your options.

Exactly, if you’re on established routes there is no reason you should have trouble finding good places to build anchors. Hell, most guidebooks tell you the best belay spots and what rack to bring.

Also, the notion that being experienced, aged, or famous is the best way to prevent an accident is the kind of overconfidence that breeds mistakes. Gravity acts the same on everyone and constant vigilance and practice are more important than just climbing for a while. I'd imagine the people referenced in this thread didn't live this long by climbing like know it alls.

Mitch Musci wrote:One situation that hasn't been discussed yet regarding belaying off your harness vs belaying off the anchor is...the next pitch! I will typically spend the extra time it takes to equalize 3 pieces and belay off the anchor, so that when it's time for the following pitch, I feel good (err, as good as one can feel) about potentially catching a factor 2 fall on that same anchor. Actually I find it a bit worrisome how many people are stressing that bomber belay anchors can't always be found. Right we get it, there are those times when shit is hitting the fan or you're on some obscure adventure climb or whatever...and even your belay anchor is questionable. Seriously though, if you are not finding bombproof belay anchors you should really be taking a second or third look at all of your options.

I do a lot of obscure adventure climbs and that's certainly one of the times when such belays are encountered. But there are others:

• you're climbing in the mountains on well-established, fairly moderate routes and using a light rack (e.g., the Wind Rivers). You will often build a minimal anchor and give a harness/body belay--good anchors can be found but your may not have the necessary gear and your goal is to move fast.
• you're on a well-established route but the belay is, in reality, not all that great. It's fine, adequate enough, but you belay off your harness for that extra little measure of security--your body is the first line of defense. I feel that a lot of Eldo routes (rotten ledge system belays) fall into this sneaky category.
• you're on a difficult route that has a few very easy pitches up top (say 5.4 on a 5.11 route or something). The sun is going down and you need to move fast, so you use a body belay rather than setting up a bomber 3-piece anchor at the top of these pitches.

Other situations where I commonly find myself belaying off the harness:

• the anchors are bomber as can be but annoyingly far from a good stance or good place to sit. In these situations a harness belay is often a sensible option, if you can sit and brace yourself.
• the anchor is bomber but for whatever reason has no convenient master-point, you prefer not to redirect through a single piece, and there's a good stance.
• the anchor is bomber but you prefer to sit and watch/coach your partner, whom you expect to struggle.

I will also add that I am heavier than almost everyone I climb with, which makes the harness belay a bit easier for me. I've caught many, many falls in this configuration with, at the worst, a slight amount of discomfort.

As to the previous post, the know-it-alls I have seen on this thread are the ones who say things like "I would never belay off my harness" and "I shudder to think that anyone would do that" and then take offense when someone else takes that as a sign of inexperience. I don't think pointing out that there are most definitely situations where a harness belay is a valid option or the preferable option makes one a know-it-all.

Mitch Musci wrote:One situation that hasn't been discussed yet regarding belaying off your harness vs belaying off the anchor is...the next pitch! I will typically spend the extra time it takes to equalize 3 pieces and belay off the anchor, so that when it's time for the following pitch, I feel good (err, as good as one can feel) about potentially catching a factor 2 fall on that same anchor. Actually I find it a bit worrisome how many people are stressing that bomber belay anchors can't always be found. Right we get it, there are those times when shit is hitting the fan or you're on some obscure adventure climb or whatever...and even your belay anchor is questionable. Seriously though, if you are not finding bombproof belay anchors you should really be taking a second or third look at all of your options.

top of one of the most popular multipitches in the canadian rockies ... the anchor i have is total limestone chossy shiet ... the stances werent the best either lotta loose rock to kick over, but better than nothing ... and before MPers start freaking out i turned for the photo ;)

do enough multi and youll come across tons of situations like this .... and im talking 10+ pitches multi/alpine

How old was the cinch that was used in the accident? The older cinches had a handle that could be forced into an off position, holding the device open. They have since been redesigned.

I use a cinch most of the time when belaying. I prefer to belay off the anchor when bringing a second up, especially on a sub-par anchor. I also think that because of the static design of the cinch, less shock-loading than a gri-gri (which has a spring mechanism) happens in a fall for a second belayed tightly using a cinch.

I can see how a cinch over the leg could cause some problems, and probably would opt not to use this configuration. I also always carry some kind of atc for rappelling when on multi-pitch routes.

I'm curious what "very experienced leader" means by the gentleman who took the fall.

percious wrote: I prefer to belay off the anchor when bringing a second up, especially on a sub-par anchor

remind me not to follow you up anything...

ABMFB wrote:I miraculously escaped with only a sprained ankle and a couple of bruises. I'd like to thank all of the well-wishers here and especially thanks to Jake and John for assisting us. I owe you a debt I can't possibly repay.

Glad you and the others are ok. This story will give me pause in making sure I have the best setup given the situation. Again, glad to hear you're all well.