Belay Anchor

Kevin Craig wrote: And if the locker (that should be used at the master point) breaks, there is no anchor, and if the climber is belaying off his/her harness and the belay loop or harness breaks, there is not anchor, and if both pieces blow, there's no anchor. No system can be 100% safe and if you back everything up that could possibly (>3 sigma) break, you'll never get past P1. That said, I know that AMGA and ACMG guides are not happy with the sliding X - they have a higher duty of care however.

I've heard this argument before. "If you don't back up your belay loop or belay biner or climb on doubles, then why do you need to back up anything?".

Really? Come on, that is just getting a little crazy. Of course backing up stuff is going to be better. Going off of one sling, 2 pieces of pro and 3 non-lockers certainly has room for improvement. Can you get away with it? Sure. Is it hard to be redundant? No. And just because I climb on a single rope doesnt mean I dont have to worry about an anchor being redundant... at least in my world.

Spri wrote: just because I climb on a single rope doesnt mean I dont have to worry about an anchor being redundant... at least in my world.

Hooray for non-binary worldviews. Humans are not computers.

Sliding x. Generally good.
Shock loading. Generally misunderstood.
Single sling. Generally not ideal.
Single biner. Generally not ideal.
Two piece anchor. Generally not ideal.

Passing a party at the belay. Crazy shit. You are out of control. If you fell all off you would be tangled up in that shitty anchor Vertical Limit style. In that case they have to cut the oldest guy lose. You're facked old man.

The Underground said it best:

youtube.com/watch?v=7fbHOAb…

Climb Howyalike

Last time I checked slings don't just randomly break.

My biggest concern with this would be the rope working its way out of the wiregate, but even that isn't too much of a concern if the belayer is being attentive. If you have a locker, use it. If you don't, consider getting one. I see no need to get bent out of shape over this anchor.

Stich wrote:You really need to ask yourself, What Would Donini Do?

A single blue camalot would have sufficed just fine.

Has no one admonished the OP for not saying to the other party:

YER GONNA DIE!!!

Jeff G. wrote:I was climbing the other day and passed a party on a ledge.

How big was the ledge? What was the difficulty of the route? It doesn't sound like he was belaying the second of the anchor, so assuming he had a good stance and the climbing wasn't hard, I wouldn't worry.

if there was a locker at the powerpoint id be fine with it if the pieces were big and solid

the lack of a locker is concerning (or opposed non lockers)

but im not climbing on it so who knows ..

on the single sling ... the trango alpine equalizer is basically a single sling if im not mistaken ... if it cuts or breaks at certain points yr still effed ... i would say that a sling with no knots would be stronger and less likely to break than one with knots ... there is of course no redundancy should the sling get cut

bearbreeder wrote:if there was a locker at the powerpoint id be fine with it if the pieces were big and solid the lack of a locker is concerning (or opposed non lockers) but im not climbing on it so who knows .. on the single sling ... the trango alpine equalizer is basically a single sling if im not mistaken ... if it cuts or breaks at certain points yr still effed ... i would say that a sling with no knots would be stronger and less likely to break than one with knots ... there is of course no redundancy should the sling get cut

I tend to agree with this take. Prefer a locker and without some more info on the specific situation, it's hard to say more. But I will add that I've set up worse anchors when I was forced to (small gear and a juniper bush). Sometimes you just have to make do with what you have.

Dana wrote: we all know that carabiners, belay loops, and harnesses never break. But to use a single sling like that when there is an alternative that is just as quick to set up, safer, and provides more options is stupid.

Well color me stupid then. What method are you referring to that's just as quick/safer/provides more options? Cordalette (fail/maybe/maybe)? A second sling (fail, maybe, fail)? Equalette (hah! on all counts)? Tied off legs (fail/probably not/fail)

Also, as has been observed, slings don't "just break" any more often than 'biners or belay loops - assuming they're inspected/replaced at an appropriate interval.

Kevin Craig wrote: Well color me stupid then. What method are you referring to that's just as quick/safer/provides more options? Cordalette (fail/maybe/maybe)? A second sling (fail, maybe, fail)? Equalette (hah! on all counts)? Tied off legs (fail/probably not/fail) Also, as has been observed, slings don't "just break" any more often than 'biners or belay loops - assuming they're inspected/replaced at an appropriate interval.

I disagree

Anchor

First off, to the usual flip poser posters: you completely missed the obvious.

That being said, howdy all.

Here's the big problem: that SINGLE anchor/power point biner is loaded in THREE directions, which the sliding X may also subject to a cross load across the gate depending on angles and placements. That and the clove hitch moves the load AWAY from the spine (BAD #1--as biners are strongest when loaded along the spine) and toward the gate (BAD #2 as either it could open the gate and affect the knot and/or biners are weak when opened AND also subjected to multidirectional loading from the two blue sling strands).

If you must use a sliding x: please consider a 26 gram device that can be loaded on 3 axes and cannot be subject to open gate loading.

If not (either because you choose not to or don't know what that device is), please use a knot in the cordelette, sling, etc. to avoid loading your power point in THREE or more directions.

I can't say I've ever climbed a multipitch route with a partner that didn't at least carry ONE extra locking carabiner (aside from their belay biner). Reason being that most competent climbers do (and should) understand the increased margin of safety when the gate of a carabiner can be locked. What better place to use a locker than the freakin powerpoint of your anchor where you clip yer damn life into.

The topic of redundancy has been beaten to death but it comes down to one simple description: wise vs. foolish. It may not be stupid to rely on a single piece of gear, but it is downright foolish. We all know that unexpected things happen, so the wise climber prepares by having a freakin backup. 'nuf said.

Kevin Craig wrote: Well color me stupid then. What method are you referring to that's just as quick/safer/provides more options? Cordalette (fail/maybe/maybe)? A second sling (fail, maybe, fail)? Equalette (hah! on all counts)? Tied off legs (fail/probably not/fail) Also, as has been observed, slings don't "just break" any more often than 'biners or belay loops - assuming they're inspected/replaced at an appropriate interval.

Dana made a very well reasoned statement with several good points and your response was to shout her down with that reply? Huh.

Taylor Ogden wrote:Last time I checked slings don't just randomly break.

Better look twice.

coldfinger wrote: Better look twice.

Reading that it looks like a manufacturing defect. Good reminder to inspect ALL your gear, even stuff you just ripped a tag off.

Regarding the Anchor and the OP: (with the obvious caveat that this is speculation since we can't inspect said anchor)

- 2 SOLID Pieces providing a TR anchor on a LARGE ledge sounds fine. Low impact forces and, if the belayer is belaying off their harness, most of that load will be on them rather than the anchor. I've done many a hip belay on easy alpine routes with my butt wedged behind a large boulder with a "backup anchor" somewhere behind me. *A cam can be just as solid as a bolt given the right rock and placement so piece #1 could be a ok with me. *A PIN is hard to judge. Fixed pins in granite horizontals can be EASY to call "Truck". Blades in vertical, softer rock could be total sketch. Without seeing the SPECIFIC pin you can't make a call on the OP anchor.
- Can't say I'm a fan of the sliding X choice. I'd use it for sharing a load between to SMALL pieces, not my main and ONLY two anchor points. Sliding X equalization isn't perfect due to friction etc. As minimal as any shock loading might be with the rope included in the anchor, with ONLY TWO pieces, I wouldn't want ANY shock loading, however small.
- I'd want a locker or two opposed biners on the master point. Can't say I'm overly concerned with triaxial loading given the TR forces expected but it's something to consider.
- The Single sling does give me pause. While it's true that we rely on certain climbing systems to be "singularly strong" (Rope, Belay Loop etc) those items are KNOWN to be used in such non-redundant situations and are tested and designed accordingly (e.g. Belay loops are doubled loops of webbing, not single). Without that sling being tied off with an overhand knot, ANY failure of the sling and you're outta there (again, this is on a large ledge which plays a role in its assessment). As a general rule, I try to ALWAYS have two independent means of attachment to a belay. Usually it's just the rope clove hitched to a biner on one of the anchor points. It can also be a PAS, or numerous other systems but I avoid only being attached to the wall by ONE item where failure would be catastrophic. In the OP anchor, just extending the rope up to the cam and clove hitching it in again would be enough.

The idea of two anchor points and what to do with such is interesting. Climbing in the US and the way it's taught doesn't address "two point" anchors much at all. These scenarios seem more common in Europe. There's an interesting DAV (?) publication out there with some discussion of "Belay Slings" and their various uses. I'll find the link...
I'd be curious on others thoughts on some of what's discussed. (It's in German so google translate or some other system will be needed)

German Belay Document - PDF

Two Point Belay Examples

Two Point Belay Setups

Belay Sling Examples

DannyUncanny wrote:There are people that climb (and do other things) by rules of "always do this", and there are people that assess every situation as it comes along. I think experience generally pushes most people towards the latter group.

This.

It is pointless to worry about someone elses setup unless it is obviously unsafe (this one wasn't or you wouldn't be asking us).

coldfinger wrote: First off, to the usual flip poser posters: you completely missed the obvious. That being said, howdy all. Here's the big problem: that SINGLE anchor/power point biner is loaded in THREE directions, which the sliding X may also subject to a cross load across the gate depending on angles and placements. That and the clove hitch moves the load AWAY from the spine (BAD #1--as biners are strongest when loaded along the spine) and toward the gate (BAD #2 as either it could open the gate and affect the knot and/or biners are weak when opened AND also subjected to multidirectional loading from the two blue sling strands). If you must use a sliding x: please consider a 26 gram device that can be loaded on 3 axes and cannot be subject to open gate loading. If not (either because you choose not to or don't know what that device is), please use a knot in the cordelette, sling, etc. to avoid loading your power point in THREE or more directions.

wow. just wow. really amazing how you can get so many things wrong.

I love it when people who don't really understand some very basic concepts of anchor building try to spout off on the internet.

And despite what that dude wrote in his report there is obviously more going on. Even if it did break (which it sounds like it was never actually sewn together in the first place and he failed to inspect it before using it) there is NO reason he should have decked from the last bolt. His belayer dropped him. Plain and simple.

Try again coldfinger.

Good example of typical attitudes here, all I was pointing out is that slings can and do fail, ask Verm. Best to inspect them.

As for being "dropped" whatever.

Take a big fall on a much lighter belayer and yes you can expect he'll be moved around. That adds to fall distance.

As for rigging, yes that sole point biner IS being loaded away from the spine.

That's why rigging biners like a DMM Boa are so much heavier--they're designed to be loaded as can happen at a power point.

coldfinger wrote:Good example of typical attitudes here,

Who are you to be chastising others for their "attitudes" around here? You're the one that had to blow your condescending load all over the thread.