For all you outdoor educators out there...

Ah guiding the greatest most fun job you'll ever love to hate.

I attended the first ever AMGA guides course in 89. Can't remember who said this "if you want to be a guide find a second job" he was the old timer of the instructors. And he made a good point, most guiding jobs are going to be seasonal and are generally lower paying especially at the start.

Starting in 89 I worked at a rock climbing school in the Black Hills. It wasn't so much the guiding that burned me out. It was the promotion to guide manager that led to long hours of not being outdoors that I got tired of. Lasted 5 seasons.

After several years of odd jobs construction, manufacturing and what not I had also gotten into white water and mountain biking.

2000 while on an extended kayaking trip to Kernville, CA I decided to take a chance on working in the business again. Started out working the climbing wall and ropes course. The next season I took the raft guides training and started working the river as well. Again it wasn't the guiding but somebody had to replace the manager who left. And I will say that the clientele coming out of LA didn't make things better. Lasted 5 seasons starting to see a pattern here.

2012 a local guest ranch needs a bike mechanic basic maintenance stuff I can handle that. Of course it would be helpful if I could fill in guiding once in a while as well. Of course this first season is great. There's only the two of us in the bike program we only have 14 bikes and they have a 7 to 1 guide to guest ratio. So far the guest have all been very nice, the place is pretty pricy old west theme with a nature twist nobody's dropping water bottles around the place.

Happy joy, burned out, happy joy, burned out, happy joy joy. Was it worth giving up a full time job with benefits I think so. While guiding a retired lawyer up Devils Tower he told me and the other young guide that we should get better paying jobs and raise a family while we were young we could get back to climbing when we retired. Yeah right so I can pay other people to take me climbing, I don't think so.

markf wrote:I've met one individual who had a family, was actively guiding (UIAGM certified) at age 50+, and seemed to find it a rewarding lifestyle. Based on his description it did not seem like an easy job at all. He seemed to feel that you had to be at least 30-35 to have developed the maturity and perspective needed to be a really good guide.

+1

thomas ellis wrote:But isn't this about burn outs? Start your own thread about happy happy joy joy guiding. Just sayin.

-1

The thread is not specific to complaining about being burned out. It started as a survey, which could show both the negative and positive light of being an outdoor educator.

TDF-Tommy...........IMO..... Based on your comments so far, I think you are burned out before even getting a career in the field, and i seriously doubt you will last. Those who succeed know there will be ups and downs and challenges along the way, but with a positive attitude and a desire, anything can be done.

Mia, -1 for reading comprehension of your own post. You asked the audience to turn it around to a positive thread. How is that keeping it a two sided conversation? And where does the OP say anything about happy guiding?

Mia Tucholke wrote: Tommy...........IMO..... Based on your comments so far, I think you are burned out before even getting a career in the field, and i seriously doubt you will last.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? I am absolutely amped and am driven by a moral imperative to make the wilderness accessible and treated with responsibility by those who otherwise would leave the front porch. If I can teach a 17-21 YO guy/gal to make a fire in the woods when they are tired, hungry, cold, wet, etc- then the 1st world problems we impale ourselves on everyday will be nothing. And that is #1 on a long list of why I want to be an O.E.

My only "whew" is that I left a 10 year career making $70+, w/ free medical, am 30 years old with a kid, and trying to catch up on formal training so I can get the jobs where I can make the biggest impact on the young'ns. I am asking for weighs on specifically what courses I should take, steer away from, etc- don't read too much into the tone, I don't articulate well in writing.

TDF-Tommy wrote: so I can get the jobs where I can make the biggest impact on the young'ns.

If that is really your goal, you should either be training to be a school teacher, or if you absolutely must be in the OE field, working a hoods in the woods program, not a pay-for-recreation guiding situation.

I worked a hoods in the woods program for a year, most rewarding work I've ever done. But burnout is even higher than guiding, much higher actually. And I've guided fly fishing, rafting, and climbing. No comparison. Much more babysitting yuppie douchebags than having some kind of impact on kids.

An alternate path might be as an interpretive ranger doing programs.

Of all the people I worked with in the OE field, which was well over three dozen, exactly two are still in that line of work. Granted, my age cohort is late 30s/early 40s, but most of them burned out within 5 years, and a substantial portion after 2 years.

Good luck to you.

TDF....... Thanx for the clarification. I guess it did come across a bit negative first. If you are amped and ready for both ups and downs then you will do fine. And hopefully after leaving a job with that kind of salary you made some wise investments that will help you carry over during lean months.

I was a guide (rock climbing, mountaineering, mountain biking, backpacking, hiking, plush adventure tours) for nine years, and LOVED it! It is truly an amazing job. It can be a challenge to get your foot in the door, but it's definitely doable and there are some really great and decent paying guide jobs out there even for brand new guides. It seems to me that it makes a big difference who you work for and what kind of trips they run. I lucked out and worked for companies that had an awesome variety of trips in awesome locations, and therefore it didn't get boring.

Some of the best money is working for adventure tour operators where you get to go to all the different national parks, guiding week-long hiking, mountain biking, and multi-sport trips, staying in plush lodges, eating in nice restaurants, taking care of every single detail of the trip including of course guiding all the activities for the clients, and then getting paid super well with awesome tips (like 1-2k/week!). That was definitely my favorite guide job!

Guiding is perfect for working hard all summer and saving money then traveling and climbing all winter. It was great and perfect at the time, but I knew awhile back that one day I wanted to settle and have a family. I eventually went back to school for a bachelors degree while still guiding in the summers and I'll be starting medical school this summer. Now I'm 30 with a wife and child and I'm so psyched to go to med school! Guiding for me didn't seem conducive to family life due to the seasonal nature of the work, no benefits, and lots of time away from home on overnight trips. Although I think it could be doable especially with a spouse working a steady job. Also, I couldn't see myself doing it at 50 years old, being forced to be nice to sometimes extremely annoying people all in the name of tips.

I think I got out before burnout, but I could definitely see where that would happen. Probably 80% of people on trips would be really cool or at least normal enough to hang out with for a week or whatever, 15% would be just sort of weird and awkward to be around, and 5% would be flat out awful, mean, or maddeningly annoying. While I'm happy to be moving on to something else, it was an incredibly rewarding and fulfilling job, doing fun things in beautiful locations while getting to know some very interesting people.

I was a guide for multiday river trips and horseback trips in SoUT all through the summers of college and grad school. Not really formal "outdoor ed," but I definitely can relate to getting burned out. There were times that I truly hated being in the outdoors while on the job (trucks getting stuck, windstorms leveling a basecamp and destroying tents, New York slimeballs with romantic cowboy fantasies going on coke binges then screaming at the guides), but looking back on it, I really enjoyed it.

Funniest story, having more to do with another guide's burnout than mine:

It was my first year guiding, 18 yrs old, I was rowing my own boat down Desolation Canyon, and just loving the romance of the river-trip lifestyle. There was another guide who was clearly burned out, and had already been "talked to" a bit by the trip leader for yelling at guests, grumbling, and such.

Anyway, on about the 3rd or 4th morning of a trip, I had wound up with just one person on my boat, a gorgeous 25 year old, single beauty who was on the trip with her mom. My 18 year old virgin self was completely and awkwardly in love with her. We were serenely floating down the Green's flatwater with an early start, the summer sun had not yet hit the river, and the canyon walls had that nice, early morning cool feel to them. As if the mood with this beautiful girl could not get any better, a canyon wren broke the silence with its familiar descending-note call. Anyone who's been on a river trip knows the vibe that was going on, it was so serene.

The girl looks at me, smiles, and says "I just love the sound of a canyon wren in the morning."

Just as I was about to reply with some sensitive, heartfelt response, the burned out guide one boat down breaks the perfect silence, and screams out in a mockery of the canyon wren's call,

"WEE WEE WEE WEE WEEEEEEEEE SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID FUCKING BIRD!!!!!"

He totally ruined the moment. I never got any action on that trip, either.

I do know several couples with kids that make it work..... At least for a while. Typically "he" is the guide and "she" is the bread maker. I don't know of any couples with kids where both are guides..... But I guess it's possible.
Part time guiding with supplemental income from another source is probably the best way to do it, both for financial reasons and to ensure burnout doesn't happen.

Mia, totally how its going down, wife is going through school too and stands a much better chance of being the bread winner- pushing her hard! =)

TDF-Tommy wrote:Mia, totally how its going down, wife is going through school too and stands a much better chance of being the bread winner- pushing her hard! =)

Don't push her too hard........ She may get burned out......LOL

Good luck to you both!!!!!

camhead wrote: the burned out guide one boat down breaks the perfect silence, and screams out in a mockery of the canyon wren's call, "WEE WEE WEE WEE WEEEEEEEEE SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU STUPID FUCKING BIRD!!!!!".......

That's some real BS there, I mean if your that burned out just give it up. I've met a lot of people who stay in dead end jobs just to pay the bills but they often actually enjoy the work. I'll damn sure give up this current job long before I start hating it that much.

Is there a corresponding link between post word count and increasing disgruntlement?

Will S wrote: I worked a hoods in the woods program for a year, most rewarding work I've ever done. But burnout is even higher than guiding, much higher actually.

Best job I've ever had, but the burnout rate is very high and tough to do while raising a family. If you can cut it though, the times you see your impact at work is highly rewarding.

If you've got a family and bills to pay I would look at ranger jobs. Government benefits, lots of room to grow professionally, and you get to live in some pretty amazing places.

I worked hoods in the woods for a while and I agree, what an amazing job.

I considered a career in outdoor education and was on my way there. But, along the way I kept doors open by, for example, getting degrees that were broad and applied to many different fields. I am now in my early 30s, not in OE and have realized that OE was a good fit in my 20s but it would not be a good fit now.

In retrospect getting general degrees and keeping my options open for the long-run is one of the best decisions I have made in my life. Not that others won't be happy in OE, but keeping doors open never hurts.

On a side note- does anyone find the term 'Hoods in the Woods' irritating?

I am pressing with a Park and Rec degree because that will have something similar with O.E., like an interpretive ranger. In essence, I will have a piece of paper rather than an ad-hoc arrangement of education.

I would press with teaching, but man, the constraints schools put on teachers... talk about burnout.

Saying that public school is the only thing you can use a teaching certificate for is like saying the only thing an RN credential is good for is working ER. I say that as someone who has worked OE some, and has remained friends with his teachers not only from there, but also from junior high and high school. I also speak as someone who, also in his mid twenties, has also been thinking a lot about what field to go into.

Look at any field - including guides - and you will see one trend: the successful, happy people with the freedom to do what they want are those who invested a significant amount of time in getting a serious credential/building a serious brand with broad applicablity - and then specialized in an area they were/are passionate about. Think nurses doing flight work; engineers doing at-height inspection; doctors doing doctors without borders; teachers at specialized/outdoor/private schools.

Think about paramedics: multiple years of school required, but all about one thing. Now think about lawyers: they don't even care what kind of 4 year degree you have - what they care about is that you know how to learn, how to think analytically and solve complex problems.

Unless it is combined with a broader education, specialization makes you a technician. Some technicians are really highly paid, and some even make their own hours, but by and large they are not doing the creative problem-solving work that keeps most people happy in the long run. They generally don't get the chance to make many decisions, solve major problems, or be creative in their work outside their relatively narrow specialty.

In my view, teaching is one of the broader credentials that you could start with. Then you could move on to specializing in OE. For instance, there are outdoor highschools like Northwest Youth Corps' Outdoor Oregon program, as well as private schools and work with a group like NOLS. Plus, with a cred that goes beyond being a really really good guide, when you are older and ready to settle down, you can move up, into program administration for instance.

With a specialized credential, its hard for your career to change and grow along with you.