What do you carry peak bagging

A good plan
An early start
Plenty of options for increasing the day's length and difficulty (extra credit on the mind)
Lot's of (good) reefer for making friends, inducing a brief coma, or just for hunkering down in the sun or from the elements.

apeman e wrote: Oh really? Show us the proof. I bet you'd be surprised what the current literature suggests. I know I was.

Up to a 26% reduction in peak force.
Lol...Nope, not really surprised. They DO decrease peak load. As shown in this extensive test completed by what I would call a fairly reputable company who does not even produce any type of screamer. In other words, They are saying their competition is doing a good job making good products. Doubt that there is any bias in there. Are you surprised? Enough proof?

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

What literature are you speaking of?

Im basing my information on controlled testing. Not someone falling on piece and saying it works or otherwise. The only real world application of a screamer in my opinion is on the first screw or the first 2 placed. Where there is simply not enough rope out to absorb much of the energy, the screamer can act in place of the dynamic rope. I agree that there is absolutely NO need to place them on every screw or every pin. For sure. But they do have their place right off the deck. I dont think they do much to help a weak placement. Although they should, in theory, slightly. However they do act as a buffer. Falling right off the deck places a ton of force on you and your pro due to lack of usable rope to absorb the energy. i find it hilarious that everyone associate screamer with climber that fall often. Thats like saying everyone driving around with an airbag in their car crashes often. Its simply not so. And its a horrible generalization. If a partner of mine clips a screamer...good for him. I dont use em...But that doesnt mean I dont believe they have their place. I dont think there is a need to have 6 of them hanging off your gear loop.

Edit: I read your posts from Rgold on supertopo...and they have no data whatsoever, Just his opinion. I really think you may want to take the 10 minutes to read the testing which Black diamond did, which contains ACTUAL test data, and results, of real world testing. This is completely unbiased testing, as black diamond has nothing to gain by proving a competitors product actually works as it is claimed to. Im still putting my money on the proven data... sorry. This rgold dude may be an awesome climber. May really know his stuff. But his view on screamers is all speculation. And will continue to be, until someone proves the public data wrong. They do have their place.

You may of not realized but I stated much earlier that I dont even own a single screamer. I dont use them. Nor am I in any way shape or form associated with yates. So I have nothing to gain either. Im simply trying to get the CORRECT information out to those who seek it. And not speculation or opinions. I'd like to see someone from "mountain project" or "supertopo", go and tell one of black diamond or petzl sponsored athletes that they might want to take the screamers off their rack, cause theyre bad juju.

I also would be very curious to see the test data proving your theory of rope dynamics and the failure to "recover". When in fact, If the rope has stretched to said "point", its already done its job. You are not going to gain force or momentum after a quickdraw, sling, tree, car, or screamer catches your fall. The ONLY way this could physically happen is if the piece in which caught you (And deployed the screamer) failed. Think about what happens when you fall on a piece of gear and it holds. At any point did your rope stretch, constrict, and then stretch again aside from a slight bounce? No. Same with a screamer. Except that screamer lessened the IMPACT force on your body and gear, greatly. It allows the force to be lessened over a longer period of time, greatly reducing the peak force load. Therefore lessening the force on your body, and pro. The numbers dont lie. Unless someone has tested that theory and proved it right, I would question whether or not that situation is even able to exist real world. Cause I cannot see how it can. I am seriously seriously interested in the data you speak of. Not at all to help prove a point, but because i am genuinely interested in seeing it and learning something new. Any source of that data available?

And ps...26% reduction is not marginal in my book. But I digress.

The Black Diamond study. To Screamer or not to Screamer?

Results: 9-foot Factor 1 Fall on to 1st Piece of Gear

Results: 2-foot Factor 0.36 Fall on to 1st Piece of Gear

Thanks Diva....that is the data I was speaking of. Cant argue that.

sure you can...

dont fall

lol...thats not a very good arguement regarding the potential of a screamer to reduce the peak force of a fall. And if your not falling your not trying hard enough.

superkick wrote:sure you can... dont fall

Why bother with that dumb rope thingy then.

indeed david...

and cms..saying that if you arent falling you arent trying hard enugh, might be one of the dumbest things ive ever seen written regarding mountaineering.

superkick wrote:indeed david... and cms..saying that if you arent falling you arent trying hard enugh, might be one of the dumbest things ive ever seen written regarding mountaineering.

Whos said anything about "mountaineering"? Cause im fairly certain i did not. you've never heard that before?? It's a saying. And I'm fairly certain no one says that pertaining to general mountaineering or lead, especially on ice where falls are completely unacceptable. Look at boulderers, sport climbers, and tr's. Push your limit and learn how to climb at your limit. Obviously this means along the way, your going to take some falls. Are you implying that you don't fall? Ever? Not once? Cause if not I think I want your autograph. The worlds top climbers fall repeatedly. Why? Because they're pushin themselves. I think you need to tell Sharma, Gadd, and Anker your awesome new secret. Cause damn, theyve been doin it wrong this whole time.

I'm not talking about taking a crevasse fall or making a technical error. I'm speaking in terms of the difficultly of the climb. Saying that's one of the dumbest things you've ever heard and implying that I was speaking of mountaineering, is def one of the dumbest replies I've seen yet on this forum. Saying don't fall, is like saying don't get into a car accident, ever. Shit happens. I don't know what you climb but I took maybe 3 falls on toprope this weekend working a new mixed route in the dacks around m7. I guess I'm a shitty climber, or apparently just dumb

and im fairly certain David was not agreeing with you, rather asking you why YOU bother to use a rope, if your motto is...simply...dont fall. If it was that simple....this would be a rather boring sport that to be honest, would not interest me in the least bit.

why would you not be talking about mountaineering specifically in the mountaineering forum...

I should have known you meant top roping mixed climbs and bouldering...

and I know david wasnt agreeing with me...Thansk for further clarifying that though. I dont use a rope very often besides glacial travel as far as mountaineering is concerned. then again, you are probably one of those people who need a rope team to get up the DC.

go ahead say something else stupid. Then back up your dumb statement by saying you were talking about something else.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA Because who would bring screamers on a general mtneering route? Maybe for the ice on Liberty Ridge. LOL I dont even have to directly reply to a post like that. You said it all for me. Carry on. You seem like a real stand up guy. Too bad your in the northeast. I hope I never have to carry your butt out.

And I'll have you know that I have been on the DC twice before, But I didnt have an entire team dude...Two sherpa's was ALL I NEEDED.

Ps...If you would like to continue this discussion you may email me. I dont really enjoy bickering on an internet forum.

superkick wrote:I dont use a rope very often besides glacial travel as far as mountaineering is concerned.

What a silly argument this is. Yes, when you are climbing without a rope screamers aren't going to help you. I would suggest leaving your harness at home too. Yes, on easy terrain it is often safer (faster) to climb without a rope. On harder terrain, meaning mountaineering involving hard for you ice or mixed climbing, if the gear is tiny nuts or screws in suspect ice, a screamer reduces the peak load and therefor may help if you fall. Place it if you want to carry the extra weight for some risk mitigation while ice climbing on a mountaineering route. If you only use a rope to cross glaciers and not for the actual climbing then screamers are obviously useless to you.

Im done with this argument. David summed it up. Thanks dude. Regardless, superkick, your turning this into an argument that was never an argument to begin with. Who the hell began talking about climbing ropeless? And who the heck said anything about me climbing the DC? You. And if you knew anything about my experience, I think you would change your tone. With that said. good luck to you. I personally dont care whether or not you choose to use screamers as they were intended, or even a rope. Do your thing dude. Its all you.

The need of a rope is objective based. And your own level of confidence..and a partners level if you have one. I didnt say never use a rope..I said most times... On a route with sustained periods of near vertical ice, or sustained periods of technical alpine rock climbing...sure. On easy or moderate routes, or a moderate route with short periods of non vertical ice. probably not.

Its my own opinion that screamers are useless and mostly make up for confidence people lack when climbing a route utside their ability.. you are the one who wont let the subject go. My original post at the guy who stated he uses screamers to give him mental confidence, wasnt directed at you..and he never even responded to it. Apparently youve just felt the need to be a champion of the screamer.

Enjoy it.

Lol...If you remember...I dont even own one. Your arguing that a piece of gear is used to simply instill confidence, which could then be said about every piece of hardware ever made... In which case you might as well donate your entire rack to me. I'll put it to good use. I am simply trying to HELP you realize that they are not useless and do not simply "make up for lack of confidence" in climbers who use them. I was not trying to argue from the start, however your ignorance seems to of cause you to ignore the hard evidence that a major gear MFG unassociated with Yates put out. That SHOULD of been the end of the conversation right there. If you recall it wasnt I that wouldnt "let the subject go". That would be you. You cannot deny proof. If you could, we could all sit here and argue each piece of gear we each choose to use. In closing, in certain instances, even you yourself MAY benefit from the several ounces of "extra" weight. It may even save your ass one day. Considering Im beginning to put up new routes in the middle of no where working with a well known guidebook author, I plan on buying a couple. If it saves my butt once, it was money well spent and weight worth carrying. All this was to provide the truth, not to bicker about other useless crap.

I love people who argue for the use of things they dont even own...

LMAO...that is your reply? I have owned them, I have used them, I do understand how they work and I do know they work because factual testing doesnt lie. dude...Get a grip on yourself. No longer feel the need to help you understand so...cya

Factual testing is now a once run limited study, done by engineers and not physicists? A study that states, "Our limited testing does show, however, that a Screamer (or similar energy absorbing device) COULD reduce the peak force that the piece is subjected to by up to 26%."

Enjoy your use of screamers and depending upon them because they CULD save you when you climb out of your ability on sketchy ice.

Holy crap dude.... your insane!