Cerro Torre: the mountaineering community's response

Rolo Garibotti pulled together a great statement that offers the mountaineering community's response to the removal of Maestri's bolts. Impressive list of Patagonian activists and alpine luminaries support Kennedy and Kruk's restoration project.

teton.outerlocal.com/climbi…

i dont care too much about bolts .... though i dont really think they should have been chopped

what i DO care about is reading about the FFA put up by mr lama after half a century on that route ... that goes around 5.13b r/x (guess as there are 60 foot runnouts on 5.12 supposedly) ...

but then all north america seems to care about are bolts, or lack of ... rather than first free ascents ...

the REAL story ...

redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en…

I agree big-time with bearbreeder, who cares about bolt chopping when a day or two latter some teen-ager freed that shit? And... climbing Cerro Torre is NOT mountaineering.

H&K are putzes. They tried to prevent David from freeing the line and failed. Now we can forget their aid climb and move on.

Title should read more like an Onion headline: "100% of those who agree found to be in agreement on Cerro Torre."

Rolo asked others too, but those who didn't agree were conveniently left out of the "community response". With so many other climber's views completely lacking, this is certainly not a community statement.

"Pres Obama sat in Oval Office just signing papers while Cerro Torre Chopped!" "Romney took action by saving another tax deduction, for later!"

Call this "list" what it really is, damage control by interested parties.

• I don't give two shats about the bolts.

Beagle wrote:I agree big-time with bearbreeder, who cares about bolt chopping when a day or two latter some teen-ager freed that shit? And... climbing Cerro Torre is NOT mountaineering.

Only because there was a line of bolts running up it so close together you could Z-clip.

Not mountaineering? I guess that's how the sport climbing crowd here justifies applying their "a free ascent is better no matter what!" mentality to committing alpine climbs.

JulianB wrote: Only because there was a line of bolts running up it so close together you could Z-clip. Not mountaineering? I guess that's how the sport climbing crowd here justifies applying their "a free ascent is better no matter what!" mentality to committing alpine climbs.

Wahhhhhhhaaaa! My heroes are not as BA as a wenie competitive "sport climber"! Wahhhhhhhhaaaaa!!!!!

Don't worry, they can always redeem themselves by sacking up and freeing a line on the Torre anytime they want!

Johny Q wrote: Wahhhhhhhaaaa! My heroes are not as BA as a wenie competitive "sport climber"! Wahhhhhhhhaaaaa!!!!! Don't worry, they can always redeem themselves by sacking up and freeing a line on the Torre anytime they want!

Free climbing is irrelevant to hard alpinism. The quote "aid routes" that Karo and Jeglic have put up on the south and east faces of Cerro Torre are infinitely more impressive than Lama's bolt and guide assisted ascent.

JulianB wrote: Free climbing is irrelevant to hard alpinism. The quote "aid routes" that Karo and Jeglic have put up on the south and east faces of Cerro Torre are infinitely more impressive than Lama's bolt and guide assisted ascent.

Alpinism is to climbing like roots are to a tree, and you are still stuck in the mud.

topher donahue wrote:Title should read more like an Onion headline: "100% of those who agree found to be in agreement on Cerro Torre."

+1 For the Onion comparison. Thank you Mr. Donahue, this nicely sums up how asinine most arguments in the climbing world are.

topher donahue wrote:Title should read more like an Onion headline: "100% of those who agree found to be in agreement on Cerro Torre." Rolo asked others too, but those who didn't agree were conveniently left out of the "community response". With so many other climber's views completely lacking, this is certainly not a community statement.

Agreed.

Separate from the decision of "remove vs keep in place", this list of names omits numerous important Patagonia alpinists who may have been asked and did not support this instance chopping, or signing a petition to that effect. Yet it doesn't include those names, making it pretty meaningless. A more representative review would have allowed for those names to be respectfully published as well other options when folks saw shades of gray to the issue, such as "the bolts didn't belong, but removing the headwall bolts before taking down the compressor and bolted crack sections was a bad decision".

It was reduced to a simple yes/no, with only the "yes" votes being counted.

topher donahue wrote: With so many other climber's views completely lacking, this is certainly not a community statement.

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anywhere in Rolo's letter a claim that it was a "community statement". Quite to the contrary, it seemed very clear that it was a list of people who agreed with the chopping of the bolts and nothing more.

Maybe I've missed it somewhere, but were the hangers removed leaving the bolt partially exposed, or were the hangers and bolts removed?

BC Sortor wrote:Maybe I've missed it somewhere, but were the hangers removed leaving the bolt partially exposed, or were the hangers and bolts removed?

They're integral. The "bolts" look like soft iron pitons that had the ends bobbed off.

They pop them out whole, leaving a shallow-ish hole.

Hilarious, Topher!

JulianB wrote: Free climbing is irrelevant to hard alpinism. The quote "aid routes" that Karo and Jeglic have put up on the south and east faces of Cerro Torre are infinitely more impressive than Lama's bolt and guide assisted ascent.

rockandice.com/news/1793-tn…

Lama and Ortner simply packed a fatter rack and met the challenges of the route in the best possible style. The crux arête checked in at 5.13b and involved a 30-foot runout. Lama climbed the headwall onsight, facing 60-foot runouts above 5.12 climbing. He writes on his blog (david-lama.com), “It’s a weird feeling. Over three years the goal of free climbing Cerro Torre has been a part of me. Now I was finally able to pull it off. I have reached my goal. But with doing so, the goal is no more; only the memories remain … Already on our way from Nipo Nino to El Chalten we’re discussing new projects.”

RI: Did you climb onsight, or rehearse the moves on top rope?

Lama: On the arete that avoids the bolt traverse and the Salvaterra Crack I took a couple of falls until I was able to get up to the belay. Then Peter lowered me and I did this pitch second try. All the other pitches I climbed right away.

RI: Did you or your team place any new bolts?

Lama: I brought a few bolts and a hand drill with me, because I was not sure if I’d need some bolts to secure my variation on the headwall, but I didn't place any.

RI: What is the grade of the free-climbing crux?

Lama: The hardest pitch is the one that goes up a few meters left of the Salvaterra Crack. At first I thought it must be around 5.13b, but the more I think about it the harder it feels. Maybe someone will try to repeat the free ascent some day, so we have a second opinion. But really free climbing on Cerro Torre is something that goes far beyond grades. Especially in the headwall the protection is pretty poor and you better not fall. Therefore the grade of the most difficult pitch says very little about the difficulty of the whole climb.

RI: What is the protection on the crux? Bolts? Pitons? Gear? If gear, what size?

Lama: There is one piton and below you can place some small nuts. Maybe a really small cam would work, too. Then you have to climb the crux section and about eight meters higher you can place a Friend again. There are certainly some pitches above the crux where falling is simply not an option. On the last pitch of the headwall, for example, I wasn’t able to place solid gear so I had to do a 15- to 20-meter runout.

I haven't followed this controversy closely, nor will I claim to have particularly strong feelings. I'm not certain that this is any longer an either/or between the purists and Lama.

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, Kennedy and Kruk climbed the route in the classic style and elected to chop the controversial bolts on the way down.

Lama then manned up and made an amazing ascent in the purest style possible. If anything, his accomplishment was made greater by the fact that the bolts were no longer there.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but based on that timeline it seems as though chopping the intermediate bolts on the route opened the way for Lama to take a massive leap forward both in athleticism and style. Why, then, is there objection to chopping the route?

Sott O u actually make sense
Thanks for so perfectly stating what I wanted to.

Like Topher said above. Seems a bit ironic to me. When a meeting was held on this matter in El Chalten in 2007 and decided 75% to 25% not to chop the bolts, Rolo dismissed that group by saying that they didn't represent the 'mountaineering community'.

Now, Rolo has his own list.

I would be very interested in knowing who Rolo contacted who refused to put their name on the list. Maybe then we will get a better picture of whether Rolo's list really does represent the 'mountaineering community.'

No kidding Scott, he went there and got the route free and seems that whole point, probably the basis for any climbing to begin with, got sidestepped, or even sounds like intentionally downplayed. If free climbing is not that big a deal, why take any notice of what has been done in Yosemite? Freeing a route in its natural state should matter. This situation seems akin to Eiger birding. People sit on the hotel deck and watch the mountain through a little spyglass spewing out all kinds of bullshit, while the guys on the wall aren't on anyone's 'side', they just want to go and climb it on its own terms.