Compressor Chopped?

David Sahalie wrote:i admire the thought and research and thought you've put into this disturber of peace. i'm interested to see if the mags do anywhere near your level of investigation. we know that Climbing is run by Kennedy Sr., and UC has the same parent company, but maybe R&I will do some actual investigative reporting.

I though he was with Alpinist since he sold Climbing in '97 source and Aplinist lists a disclaimer in all the KK articles I read.

David Sahalie wrote: take ethical advice from guys who share a sleeping bag, pad, and toothbrush? no thanks.

Yes you'll get much better advice from a bunch of beenie wearing pebble crushers.

David I am wondering why you even give a rats A$$ clearly climbing in the alpine environment would mean risking ones life. Something you seem unwilling to do even on the tiniest of miniature mountains. Let alone in the great ranges of the world.

I always knew I wasn't cut out for the big alpine stuff but I did share a sleeping bag with my Half Dome partner. We didn't bother to brush our teeth for a 2 day climb.

If nothing else K & K have given us arm chair mountaineers something to rant on and on and on about.

Tim McCabe wrote: Yes you'll get much better advice from a bunch of beenie wearing pebble crushers. David I am wondering why you even give a rats A$$ clearly climbing in the alpine environment would mean risking ones life. Something you seem unwilling to do even on the tiniest of miniature mountains. Let alone in the great ranges of the world. I always knew I wasn't cut out for the big alpine stuff but I did share a sleeping bag with my Half Dome partner. We didn't bother to brush our teeth for a 2 day climb. If nothing else K & K have given us arm chair mountaineers something to rant on and on and on about.

He's determined to convince everyone that sport climbing ethics are the apex of climbing and that any means of ascent is justifiable so long as it goes "free" at the highest 5.whatever grade.

JulianB wrote:Someone bumped the following old thread on SuperTopo, which is actually instructive to read to get an idea of what a mess David Lama and his team made up there the first time, and the lies they told about it, which makes him getting high-and-mighty now look all the more hypocritical: Bolts chopped on Cerro Torre Here's an interesting quote from Rolo Garibotti a few pages in: "I exchanged a few emails with the park service here in Chalten, and with the park superintendent in Calafate even before Red Bull showed up last year and in short they dont feel that climbing ethics is any of their business." That makes it seem pretty bizzarre if they are actually considering regulations now because some bolts got chopped.

and yet he sent it free ... in what many would agree is good style this year ... what no one else could do for the past 50 years

even ray jardine chiseled el capitan

people would rather argue over a few bolts or lack of ... than a FFA

So just to be clear:

-Chopping bolts is dictating how others climb.

-Placing bolts (including retro-bolting) is not dictating how others climb.

It's good to know there's people out there who consider bolts the most sacred aspect of climbing and protection. A stuck C4 left in a crack is crag swag whereas a drilled placement is practically an organic extension of the mountain I suppose.

JulianB wrote: He's determined to convince everyone that sport climbing ethics are the apex of climbing and that any means of ascent is justifiable so long as it goes "free" at the highest 5.whatever grade.

Long time washed up Needles climber John Page once said "there are no ethics to sport climbing there is a lack of ethics". If sport climbing has an ethic perhaps its just make sure its safe for everyone. And you know that's fine for some places and there should be places for people like David to go outside of the gym.

bearbreeder wrote: and yet he sent it free ... in what many would agree is good style this year ... what no one else could do for the past 50 years even ray jardine chiseled el capitan people would rather argue over a few bolts or lack of ... than a FFA

Every El Cap route that will ever get an FFA will do so on chiseled holds, unintentionally chiseled but chiseled none the less.

It seems silly to me to use the word ethics in regard to climbing. Climbers have always done what ever they felt necessary to climb a route. Even the strictest of ethics allow for some damage to the rock.

Modern climbers seem to separate rock climbing into two forms trad is crack climbing and all face, with bolts, is seen as sport. When I first started climbing it was crack or face there were trad face climbs and sport face climbs. The difference was how the bolts got placed for the FA.

The rules of trad climbing said that the climber had to be able to climb up the route from the ground up. Only on lead was the climber allowed to damage the rock by drilling safety bolts. This wasn't a let's make all climbs dangerous ethic it was a you have to have the skill or you don't get to make the FA rule.

I forget if it was Skinner RIP or Piana who said the best thing in climbing is to succeed on your enemy's routes and see them fail on yours.

Sport climbers seem to think that competition came to climbing with the advent of the plastic pulling comps. Climbers had been competing for FA's since the beginning. Rap bolters steal routes from future climbers who will have the skills to put the routes up in keeping with the old rules.

David why is it so hard for you to accept one climbing area where climbers still play by the old rules? It's not the whole Black Hills it's just one tiny area along the Needles highway. The old guard gave up on the rest of the Hills long ago.

hmmmm ... i wasnt aware that the compressor route was rap bolted

perhaps someone can produce evidence that the route lama sent this year free was rap bolted ... i believe it was stated he didnt place any new bolts in this years FFA, and in fact had to do some death fall runnouts rather than put in new bolts

again ... a FFA is done in what many would term good style ... and MPers would rather talk about bolts ...

bearbreeder wrote:hmmmm ... i wasnt aware that the compressor route was rap bolted perhaps someone can produce evidence that the route lama sent this year free was rap bolted ... i believe it was stated he didnt place any new bolts in this years FFA, and in fact had to do some death fall runnouts rather than put in new bolts again ... a FFA is done in what many would term good style ... and MPers would rather talk about bolts ...

I wasn't referring to Lama's ascent he is clearly a very talented climber.

David just gets me going when he keeps bringing up the Black Hills. It's actually several pages back in this debacle.

For the record I'll agree with David that chopping this route sets a bad precedent. Just because someone puts up a new route in better style they don't necessarily have the right to remove a route that has stood for decades. Just as David doesn't have the right to add bolts to a route that has stood for decades.

JulianB wrote:So just to be clear: -Chopping bolts is dictating how others climb. -Placing bolts (including retro-bolting) is not dictating how others climb. It's good to know there's people out there who consider bolts the most sacred aspect of climbing and protection. A stuck C4 left in a crack is crag swag whereas a drilled placement is practically an organic extension of the mountain I suppose.

Adding bolts to a climb doesn't dictate how people climb but it certainly has an impact on the experience. Just as chipping, gluing on, or bolting on an extra hand hold will have an impact on ones experience.

I'll shut up on this topic now and let the Keyboard Mountaineers get back to arguing about the ethics/rules of alpine climbing.

David Sahalie wrote: are you high on glue? YOU keep bringing up the Black Hills, not me!

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David Sahalie wrote: ok, I'll quote you next time i'm in the Black Hills and want add some bolts

Tim McCabe wrote: I'll shut up on this topic now and let the Keyboard Mountaineers get back to arguing about the ethics/rules of alpine climbing.

Your being ironic right? If it wern't for you this thread would already be dead. Maybe you and David need to get a room.

Tim McCabe wrote: Adding bolts to a climb doesn't dictate how people climb but it certainly has an impact on the experience. Just as chipping, gluing on, or bolting on an extra hand hold will have an impact on ones experience. I'll shut up on this topic now and let the Keyboard Mountaineers get back to arguing about the ethics/rules of alpine climbing.

In that respect, chopping bolts on a climb doesn't dictate how people climb either, it simply alters the method in which the climb needs to be protected (and of course, nothing is stopping anyone who climbs from drilling a bolt themselves, it's not like some mythical forcefield has been installed on the mountain).

Johny Q wrote: Your being ironic right? If it wern't for you this thread would already be dead. Maybe you and David need to get a room.

This thing has a life of its own now, it will likely never die.

No doubt years from now someone will bring it back from the dead.

David if you ever make it down to Tucson let me know. We can sniff some glue smoke a bowl or just sit down for a beer I am game for anything but the glue.

Peace

JulianB wrote: In that respect, chopping bolts on a climb doesn't dictate how people climb either, it simply alters the method in which the climb needs to be protected (and of course, nothing is stopping anyone who climbs from drilling a bolt themselves, it's not like some mythical forcefield has been installed on the mountain).

True enough.

There's a feature article about Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy's climb and decision to chop the bolts on squamishclimbing.com There is some new ground covered in the piece such as Jason was trying to phone friends and relatives of his dead climbing friend (Carlyle Norman) when he was cornered by locals in El Chaltén and detained by police. He also opens up on his thoughts regarding David Lama's ascent.

Here's the link: squamishclimbing.com/2012/0…

Squamish Climber wrote:There's a feature article about Jason Kruk and Hayden Kennedy's climb and decision to chop the bolts on squamishclimbing.com There is some new ground covered in the piece such as Jason was trying to phone friends and relatives of his dead climbing friend (Carlyle Norman) when he was cornered by locals in El Chaltén and detained by police. He also opens up on his thoughts regarding David Lama's ascent.

I like it! However, Kurk could have been articulate in his responses. The saga continues...

coldfinger wrote: Wow, you two are precious..... Maybe you should think of it like this: 'dude this total doosh came to my proj at Joe's and bolted tr anchors and chipped stuff sayin he was cleaning and claimed the send but the dude couldn't even pull the move to set up for the dish, totally lied about it, now it's f'cked, like only TR V2!' PS Wasn't Maestri's route--he didn't send, just lied, defaced, drilled, chopped and left a ton of garbage. Total buzzkill.

Wow! thanks cold finger... Now I truly get it and am enlightened beyond belief.... maybe you should think of it like this: You never know who youre talking shit to on the internet. total buzzkill

climbmagazine.com/news/2012…

"We, some of the many climbers who have devoted much energy over the last decades to climbing in the Fitz Roy and Cerro Torre massifs, shaping the region's climbing history, are in full support of the bolt removal:

Jorge Ackermann, Tomy Aguilo, Conrad Anker, Bjorn-Eivind Artun, Trym Atle Saeland, Scott Backes, Scott Bennett, Bjarte Bø, Carlos Botazzi, Martin Boysen, John Bragg, Ben Bransby, Chris Brazeau, Phil Burke, Tommy Caldwell, Ramiro Calvo, Ben Campbell-Kelly, Rab Carrington, Dave Carman, Robert Caspersen, Andy Cave, Yvon Chouinard, Carlos Comesaña, Kelly Cordes, Inaki Coussirat, Pete Crew, Sebastian De la Cruz, Alejandro Di Paola, Leo Dickinson, Ben Ditto, Jim Donini, Martin Donovan, Dana Drummond, Magnus Eriksson, Gabriel Fava, Nico Favresse, Silvia Fitzpatrick, Ralf Gantzhorn, Rolando Garibotti, Stefan Gatt, Chris Geisler, Jon Gleason, Gustavo Glickman, Milena Gomez, Colin Haley, Brian Hall, Kennan Harvey, Jorge Insua, Peter Janschek, Hans Johnstone, Neil Kauffman, Joel Kauffman, Hayden Kennedy, Michael Kennedy, Andy Kirkpatrick, Jason Kruk, Ole Lied, Whit Magro, Klemen Mali, Carlitos Molina, Marius Morstad, Avo Naccachian, Fermin Olaechea, Marius Olsen, Ian Parnell, Luciano Pera, Korra Pesce, Doerte Pietron, Michal Pitelka, Kate Rutherford, Mikey Schaefer, Stephan Siegrist, Pedro Skvarca, Zack Smith, Bruno Sourzac, Rick Sylvester, Jim Toman, Doug Tompkins, Jvan Tresch, Roberto Treu, Sean Villanueva, Adam Wainwright, Eamon Walsh, Jon Walsh, Josh Wharton, Andres Zegers

We also support the removal of the Compressor Route bolts:

Vince Anderson, Chris Bonington, Mick Fowler, Steve House, Heinz Mariacher, Reinhold Messner, Paul Pritchard, Sonnie Trotter, Mark Twight"

Bravo, to these men for doing what boys would not.

Rob

Funny thing is that Maestri was on the second ascent of the ridge with his compressor. In 1967/68 Boysen, Crew, Burke, Haston and Fonrouge attempted the route and got to just below the shoulder before the headwall. They had some terrible weather with little opportunity for success - but imagine if they had succeeded......the Compressor Route would never have existed.

Account here .