BD Cobra Failure PSA

Crag Dweller wrote: What happened is the bolt sheared off. And, based on the information provided it did so under relatively small forces. If the OP had done something to generate significant force against the piece, he probably would've known when that happened. That's not what he described and I see no reason to question the story. Bashing BD? Who's bashing? Pointing out a potential problem is a far cry from bashing.

Yeah, one defective screw...YAWN!

Ray Pinpillage wrote: Yeah, one defective screw...YAWN!

I'm sure that's what the folks manufacturing the defective aliens said about the brazing.

Crag Dweller wrote: Actually, a single brick does bear the weight of an entire building. Or, at least the weight of everything above it. So, that single brick at the base of a two-story building is bearing at least as much as a lot of cars weigh. And, technically, it's subject to the force that each one of those bricks above create due to the force of gravity. Plus the roof and stuff. Of course, when you start talking about steel framed buildings and such, things change a bit. But, that's getting way too far into the weeds.

Exactly. So, logically...

If she weighed the same as a duck...

She's made of wood.

And therefore...

A witch!

you guys are fucking idiots, if this actually was a problem there would be more than one report of it happening. 'nuff said, metal doesn't last forever, if you climb ice it is very possible for a tiny little screw to shear off at one point or another. stop bickering over it. When black diamond gets back to you go ahead and post what they say, or don't, I really don't care. this is like the boy who cried wolf and was caught red handed but a few stubborn idiots keep insisting that there really was a wolf.

just stop.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:you guys are fucking idiots...metal doesn't last forever.

jesus, who pissed in your cheerios? and, when's the last time you had to retire a 'biner or crampons because the metal was just too old? never. that shit really does last forever.

like carabiners screws are only "full strength" when used correctly. the way the rest on a bd tool is set up does not qualify. set that in the middle of the shaft of an ice tool and smash it on some things and you shouldn't be too surprised when it breaks. i have broken a few of these on quarks and know others that have done the same. no big deal, shitty desighn, but not life or death. no manufacturer would tell you its ok to loop a daisy over the fang and jump off. ice tools just aren't built for that. they break but generally not from partial body weight pulling down on them.

you've never heard of metal fatigue? I had the vipers up until a month ago when I replaced them with nomics (better tools and more durable picks). The strike would loosen up every few outings or so. A little piece of metal that's wiggling around freely for a day of ice climbing can easily get scored up around where it is inserted into the shaft and snap off. sounds like that scenario is what happend. BD will probably agree. I've heard of a few instances of sabertooths breaking in this way, and biners get scored up on bolt hangers, not to the point of failure but they're quite a bit thicker than a little bolt, plus aluminum doesn't fracture in the same way that steel does. if you load a open biner enough though it will snap. Done it setting up slacklines without lockers. Can easily be broken pulling on a 3/1 system.

This was not a failure of the tool, it was a failure of a small fairly inconsequential bolt, if it worries you that much buy different tools, or wait for BD to reply and tell you the same thing. Either way stop crying wolf until there is actual evidence for a problem. I'm going (ice) climbing.

John Maguire wrote:A few comments: If you are of the mind set that this is not a failure or even not a serious failure, I question your judgement.

John, I think you need to evaluate the title of your post more than anything. It is far too strong and pretty silly. There have been countless BD cobras sold and as far as I know there has been no one killed by the pinky rest failing. I understand the bolt sheared off and it was probably due to an impact that it took during the life of the tool. I have used the cobras since they came out and also see them out everyday in the rental fleet and the plastic pinky catch/bolt take a ton of abuse and it is not shocking that it could fail.

It is funny to me that you felt you needed to inform people of this issue as it seems to be a failure of something that is not that big of a deal. I don't use the pinky catch on my tools because I like to slide up and down on my tools. I have a hard to time seeing how the catch breaking while holding on could cause a fall. You are still gripping the tool with your hand. If anything you might feel a little pop. If you have not been climbing ice for very long it could make you blow it but then why would you be leading ice if you have little experience.

I do think you need to justify why you posted this with the strong title. You have not posted a strong argument for your problem. You do come across as an alarmist and it's a bummer that you took such a strong stance on it publicly. Also do not assume people are not engineers because we do not agree with you maybe some of us just know a little more. I am glad to see BD sounds like they will take care of you as they always seem to make things work for people.

IMHO........ The plastic "rest" is really just there for basic support..... If you rely on it to hold your body weight while mixed clumbing. Well then maybe it is time for a mixed climbing lesson.......

Mia Tucholke wrote:IMHO........ The plastic "rest" is really just there for basic support..... If you rely on it to hold your body weight while mixed clumbing. Well then maybe it is time for a mixed climbing lesson.......

Really i weight that thing all the dam time. Pretty sure i am not alone. I am not on either side of this argument just saying i am pretty sure weight gets put on that rest on the regular from most that use the tools.

APB........ I agree!!! But it is only plastic...... Hence caution shall be exercised....

Mia and others: A lot of talk lately about the durability of the plastic rest. I have stated more than once in this forum, the plastic piece did not fail. The plastic piece is incredibly durable. The metal bolt that holds it to the shaft sheared off at the head.

mattb: I don't really give a shit what you impression of the BD cobras are or how reliable you think they are. No where in this forum have I said that everyone should throw their tools away and abandon black diamond.

The point of this was to point out that they can fail under normal body weight loads. If you are of any technical background I would like to hear how a failed bolt in shear is exempt from the category of a failure. If you think that the secondary rests on ice tools are just for decoration and not intended to be weighted, put down the leashes and step into 2012. That is what they are for. Normally there is no problem there but in my case it failed.

John Maguire wrote:The point of this was to point out that they can fail under normal body weight loads.

So when specifically did the bolt fail? Was it under your body weight?

no it failed without him noticing, did not cause him to fall, or really cause any danger to him whatsoever. The whistle blower in this case is a retard.

Seems like a lot of anger directed at the original poster here.

As a person who owns and uses the new Cobras, I am a bit worried by this failure (yes, I think it qualifies as a "failure") because I often weight that upper rest when climbing, and if it popped off while I was on lead, the chances of getting hurt would be high.

Going leashless, I'm not sure how anyone climbs without weighting the rests. Seems to me that the bolt that holds on the rest should be strong enough not to break.

I for one an grateful for the original poster bringing this to the attention of the MP community. I am not going to throw away my Cobras, and I won't stop buying BD gear, but I will start checking out the hand rests a bit more carefully before and after climbing.

Kai Larson wrote: but I will start checking out the hand rests a bit more carefully before and after climbing.

Bingo. Everything we use has been pared down to be as light as possible, and undergoes very light testing compared to safety-critical gear in industries with bigger markets and more visibility (automobiles, airplanes, etc.)

Stuff is going to break. It is USUALLY going to give some warning before it does. But too many people rack up without really eyeing up their gear carefully. Harnesses, slings, cams, ropes, 'biners - it can all fail. Inspect it carefully.

Is there any chance you over torqued the bolt when you installed it. It is such a small bolt I would think proper torque would be on the order of a few ft-lbs.

Over torquing a bolt can result in this type of failure.

John Maguire wrote:If you are of any technical background I would like to hear how a failed bolt in shear is exempt from the category of a failure.

bolts are stronger in tension than shear especially loaded on a single plane. i am not an engineer but i have worked on some low grade race cars. bolts shearing is a concern when designing and building those things. if you pulled the head off the screw i would be surprised. go work on some airplanes and i'll bet you will come up with some ideas for a better ice axe. climbers generally suck at building things. i would expect more from big corporations like bd and petzl but i guess anyone who is any good at these things is probably involved in the war effort. americans make some sick missile. climbing gear, not so much.

Keenan Waeschle wrote:no it failed without him noticing, did not cause him to fall, or really cause any danger to him whatsoever. The whistle blower in this case is a retard.

So if a new cam you own fails in a way to cause the cam get stuck in a crack, without you noticing, doesn't cause you to fall, or cause any danger to you whatsoever, it is not anything to be upset/concerned about? You would be a retard not to contact the manufacturer and post online to see if anyone else has experienced this problem.

Bolts should not fail like this on a feature that you could be resting a large portion of your body weight on. Period. I'm no materials engineer, but that suggests some metal issue, like bad temper.

Auto-X Fil wrote: Bingo. Everything we use has been pared down to be as light as possible, and undergoes very light testing compared to safety-critical gear...

I agree with the point you raise at the end about needing to inspect your gear. But, "compared to safety-critical gear"???

I consider all of my climbing gear "safety-critical". And, I'm pretty sure the manufacturers do too. Most gear is built and tested to withstand forces that would cause damage to internal organs before the gear fails.