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climbing ban at ramapo powerlines

al piner · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 205

Hello Jon,
I know all about the confusion of property lines and ownership of the land in that area. I am very good friends with a Palisade Interstate Park ranger. Many years ago I brought up the question of climbing in this area and what the park boundaries were. His answer to me was similar to the information your gave above.

He told me "that area has been mixed up in red tape for years. If you do climb up there just be safe ,clean and discreet and no one should bother you.If you are told to leave , do so respectively". Over ten years we had no problems. We even once asked a PIP cop if parking on Torne Brook rd was ok and he said sure be careful up there.

You say that "After a discussion with the Ramapo Town Supervisor, and a visit to the Tax Assessor, I was under the impression that the land would be managed by the Town of Ramapo, who were overall climber friendly."

Under the impression is a little to close to assuming for me.

-Did Ramapo township give permission to climb?
-Do you have any documentation of this?
-Who did you contact from the Palisades Interstate Park Commission ?
-Who authorized the development (bolting) of the area?
-Your blog mentions the Access Fund.Which coordinator are you working with?
After contacting them they seem to only have knowledge of the closing and none on the development.

The bottom line : Unless you were 100% positively sure ( documentation from PIPC or the town) that it was legal to climb , why would you go ahead and develop this area?

Tony "Alpiner"

Jon Crefeld · · New Jersey · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 290

Thanks for you questions and points, and I'll answer what I can now and get back to the rest.

On determining land management, here's a video clip from May 2010. This is when I was informed the Powerlinez area had been sold by the Ramapo Land Company, and the Town of Ramapo had bought a large part of the land. I had a sit-down with Town Supervisor Chris St. Lawrence to talk about climbing.

Discussion with Ramapo Town Supervisor.

You can see from this discussion, that it definitely seemed like a climber friendly area, and I was even asked to teach Ramapo to climb. Basically, I was asked to develop the area. Jon

rogerbenton · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 210

well that vid clears up some of the assumptions going on here.

Jon- what can locals do to help the cause (besides lay back for a while)?

Jon Crefeld · · New Jersey · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 290

Tony, trust me, this is not some financial scheme to guide at the Powerlinez. I grew up climbing trees in NJ, and we have a chance here to build something for the next generation of climbers.

If you've been to the area, you know it has a two hundred foot clear-cut all along the electrical lines and they use defoliants to keep plans from growing. We, as climbers, can be part of reclaiming some of that devastation.

So, I'm not sure why you're so quick to criticize, but as you noted - climbing is not allowed there - yet. I stand by my words, it does have a chance to be a treasure, and I hope that after I've stood the litmus tests, given the chance, you'll give us a hand opening up the best local crag around.

That'd be worth hearing a peep out of you again! Cheers - Jon

Jon Crefeld · · New Jersey · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 290

Roger, what can locals do to help?

Well, first - thanks for getting informed. It's a complicated mountain we're climbing.

We are submitting a proposal to the PIPC to allow climbing, and we have been told that their listening. (Jim Hall, Exec Dir of the PIPC)

If you have a way you can politically support the acceptance of the plan, please use it to encourage support. (Someone here said they knew a PIPC Ranger. Tell him we're definitely on the same side, and look forward to working closely with the PIPC.)

And if they accept the proposal, you are looking at: trail plans, rescue plans, impact plans, climbing ethics, chaulk ethics, bolting ethics, parking plans - creating a construction system where you can meet the needs of the thousands of people in the metro area.

So, if you have rescue training, work with the NY/NJ trail conference, are an archeologist (yes there are Indian artifacts around) ... really, I guess what I'm saying is, anticipating that we will be able to take responsibility for the resource, it's going to take everything we've got in the talent pool.

Thanks - Jon

gmiani · · Rockland Cty, NY · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 5

I’d like to address a few things that have been presented here that are misleading, misunderstood, and in some cases, outright lies. Al Piner….you want to talk about mystery motives here…what’s yours? The only thing I can assume is that this used to be your private playground and now you’re pissed that others want to play in it. Areas this big…this close to a major metropolitan area…are meant to be shared. So others can experience what we love. Does it mean things changing…yep. That’s why you get involved like I did. I can understand having “secret spots” of isolated little cliffs and boulders. If someone else finds it…all you can do is hope they take care of it like you do. Trying to keep something this big from the public…that’s the realm of selfishness and the antithesis of climbing COMMUNITY.

First, PIPC has only owned property here (Harriman excluded) since 2008 (some parts only as recently as 2010). This is actually great news since it means that this land will forever be protected from major development. But prior to that, ANYONE who climbed there was questionably breaking trespassing laws since it was then private property...I say questionably since there is a caveat added to the clause found on the NYDEC website:

Q. Must I post to keep people off my property?

A. No. Trespassing is illegal even on unposted property, unless it is unimproved, apparently unused and unfenced (or not otherwise enclosed to exclude intruders.)...

Source: dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8371.html

One could argue up and down what constitutes "unimproved, apparently unused and unfenced" but the area in question seems to pretty easily fit that description. It’s a gray area. So Al Piner, since you haven’t been climbing there in over 2 years (by your own admission) that means most, if not all, of your climbing was done on PRIVATE property. Did YOU get permission from the property owner to access the property? Did YOU check 100% positively sure whose property you were on? Given your accounts here, I think not.

Either way, PIPC does currently own parts of land that encompass the climbable cliffs and boulders (there are actually 4 different property owners that encompass the entire climbing area). Once we found this out, the guidebook was pulled and we notified the climbing public that any climbing out there would only hurt any further efforts.

Secondly, the cliff shown with all the cut trees is on land owned by Con Edison...who own the power lines and towers...NOT PIPC. THIS IS NOT STATE LAND. I agree that cutting of trees should not be tolerated…but the landowner, ConEd, has the right to do with their property as they please. This proves the point that you have no idea what’s going on here. You took pics, ASSUMED that climbers did this, ASSUMED it was on PIPC land, and turned it into a firestorm on this forum.

Now I’m a trad climber at heart (meaning if a line will take gear…no matter how bold…grow some balls). But I’ve also sport climbed. I love climbing. I mean…I even boulder these days on occasion (I don’t own a pad). But the reality is that just across the valley, less than a mile away, are the Transit Cliffs which have been bolted since the 80's. What makes them so different from the pitons that are now permanently part of the Torne above, placed during Fritz Weissner’s time? Let’s not make believe that the great men who climbed before us were some sort of infallible gods. Try to remember that we don’t climb with pitons anymore for a reason. And bolts, when properly placed, open up climbing territory that was unimaginable during Fritz’s time. Its funny to me that the same people who crap on bolts are the same people who bring up liability and safety issues…have you ever led up an “R” or “X” rated climb…most people don’t have the cajones. If you have ever clipped a bolt or old piton, but in the same breath defame them, you’re being a hypocrite.

And if you actually read Jon's blog (instead of cherry-picking parts and turning them around to your own end), he has an entry that discusses the future of bolting at the Powerlinez and how there is a need for establishing rules. And lets face it, how many people are running up there with a Hilti in hand? Its mostly pad people these days and you all know it. Technically speaking, Jon did not have permission to bolt those lines…he thought he did (see the video clip link above). Which doesn’t absolve him, but they’re there now. All we can do going forward is carefully manage the future which takes an active COMMUNITY. This is why the Gunks have rap anchors in places. Its either, people destroy the trees by rapping off them…or put in a couple bolts. It’s the responsible answer.

Don’t even get me started on guidebooks. If you use or have used a guidebook anywhere at any point to climb somewhere…again, you’re being a hypocrite for defaming this one. I bet there was a time when climbers at the Gunks were pissed at Dick Williams for writing a guidebook (and making money off of it – not to mention that he founded Rock & Snow and made money there too). But I bet you use his guide (or Swain’s) when you’re up there. And if you’ve ever had the pleasure of climbing even near Williams, you will understand his deep love of the Gunks and climbing. This is not a man simply looking to exploit and gain.

Third, the Access Fund has been involved here for quite a while. They actually supported the trail day last year (see the photo's above that have been turned around to make it seem like this was some unsanctioned and malicious deforestation project). This past week, I also personally spoke with Zachary Lesch-Huie, Affiliate Director for the Access Fund. After a run down of our efforts to contact the property owner(s) and pursue legal means to access, he gave our strategy their full backing and even asked us if we wanted to put them on it for legitimacy. We also have a former president of the Access Fund, Dave Rosenstein, working with us to help procure access. He was part of the fight to get Peter’s Kill open.

Finally, how does one expect the growing number of gym-based and taught climbers to ever learn what it means to respect and foster our finite and precious climbing resources? It seems to me that there is a lot of putting the veritable cart-before-the horse here. We want newbie climbers to know the rules before they've had a chance to experience? I’m against crass exploitation as much as I’m against selfish hogging of crags…but don’t guide services provide a certified, educated, and safer way to introduce climbers to real rock? I thought that’s what they did. Of course, this is coupled with an encouraging and welcoming climbing COMMUNITY that promotes great land stewardship. Its calling out people who litter. Or chip holds. Or bolt without permission. Or cut down trees. Or any of the other various issues facing climbers today. Its taking kids and newbies out and showing them the right way to take care of their climbing area.

The reality here is that the situation is very complex. I’m not going to say that everything up to this point was conducted in the best manner. But most people have no idea how to accurately navigate through the bureaucracy involved in these sorts of land matters. Jon made an attempt. He now knows how complex these things get. When speaking with Zachary at the Access Fund (his job is working with affiliate groups all over the country), he alluded to the fact that many groups have no idea how to navigate these waters.

I live less than 2 miles from the Powerlinez. I literally run there most days. The truth is that I could probably keep climbing there under the radar and no one would be the wiser. So why get involved? Because it’s the right thing to do for climbing…not for myself. And if any of you truly count yourselves as climbers, you’ll understand that. I’ve only known Jon since I got involved with this back in December. While we can never truly know someone’s motives, I have been hiking up there with Jon and I can unequivocally say that this is a man who gets giddy about the very thought of climbing. And that’s the only reason that should ever matter.

We are attempting to move forward from this point in a legal and community-based manner to open up this area in a responsible way for everyone to enjoy. The only choice is to get involved and help make this place what you want it to be. And we’ll need as much support as possible for anyone to be able to ever consider enjoying climbing at this amazing area again.

Insert name · · Harts Location · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 46

1. Who gave permission to bolt the area?
2. Everyone was so quick to set-up routes but not quick to hang a sign that could easily state.
- Clean up what you bring
- Don't Be an asshole

My Issue isn't with the climbing. But the amount of areas around NYC/NJ that are being bolted or having hammered in pro that isn't supposed to be there

-Mills Reservation (There is a no fixed pro policy last I checked)

-Powerlinez (Questionable policy)

-Allamuchy (I Ripped two Pitons placed as a fixed anchor where you can sling trees or place gear)

- Ralph Stover (Trad lines are being retro bolted).

-DWG (Last I checked there was 1 climb newly bolted on the NJ side)

All of these fall within Fixed Pro Ban areas or are questionable. I am all about getting on real rock. But when you are jeopardizing access for everyone because these people are to cheap/stupid/scared/lazy (whatever is maybe) to buy a rack or static line and learn what climbing is. Than keep your sport climbing inside or at areas where no one is gonna give climbers the boot.

I enjoy sport climbing/bouldering. I really do. But I think people are inconsiderate.

NJ is hard enough to climb in as it is. We don't need "Guides" bolting areas to promote business. We don't need "Climbers" placing fixed pro because they are to lazy to drag a rack out. or carry a static line. MOSTLY, We don't need "Non Climbers" bitching we are hurting property and kicking us out.

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90

Theres too much finger pointing going on and people are becoming too personally involved. It is what it is. Everyone has a motive! You think a Ny/NJ local guide wouldnt push to get the area open to increase his business? of course he would. Any of us probably would. Regardless of motive, the fact is that it is now totally restricted, considering it wasnt allowed previously but people still climbed. There was no reason to bolt such a small crag. The thing can be toproped easily. If you cant lead it on trad, tr it. Leave the potential routes there for someone with the trad talent to lead them. Dont bolt the damn place. In my opinion...those bolts need to be removed, period. developing a crag never meant bolting lines....and it shouldnt now. Im more pissed about that then anything else. Not who did it or why. Im just pissed that it happened. And it needs to be corrected. The bridge, who cares....it was a fallen tree. And its a nice bridge, lol. If the trees were not cut down by climbers, thats fine. But I cannot see the pipc cutting trees down that far away from the power lines. Im probably wrong since those poeople say they didnt cut them down, but it just seems odd to me. If they were directly under the lines then i could understand.

Again, Im not pointing fingers, I dont care who did what. I just want the area open to the climbing population and be able to go there on a sunday afternoon and meet some cool people.

Insert name · · Harts Location · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 46

Exactly.

People just need to stop bolting areas that aren't accepted bolted area. I just have a problem when people "developing" an area are the ones who don't see why everyone is pissed.

People don't publish guides to Lost City, They don't Bolt lost city and (I don't think) they bring guided clients to lost city.

So why would you bolt a area that obviously wasn't a guaranteed open spot. (I hurts every getting it fully opened) and ruins it for the people that climbed there quietly before you.

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

Lot of good lessons out there on this one...

al piner · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 205

gmiani, Jon - A good friend of mine asked me why this is bothering me so much. When I was 8 years old my grandfather took me for a hike up to the top of Upper Torne. He roped  me up for some of the fifth class stuff and gave me the old hip belay. I have loved climbing ever since that day.
I am a middle aged creaky climber that can barely lead a 5.6 on my best day. I do not climb for an adrenaline rush nor do I climb  to push my ability to its limits. Being outside on the warm rock on a cool day is more than enough to keep me happy.

We all agree this is a special area. It's one of those spots in the Hudson valley where you know something big happened a few million years ago. Truly a treasure.
Okay . Now here comes the hippie rant .
I don't see how anybody could possibly consider this area as being a secret. If an 8 year old boy can see this mountain from the new york state thruway and tell his grandfather that he wants to climb it, how can it be considered a hidden gem ? Do we need a website, do we need a governing body? I personally don't think so. It has taken care of itself for the last 50 years.

As for dealing with politicians all I have to say is God bless you. In my world, they can keep their promises and handshakes.I think you have already been given a small taste. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You will soon be going to the powerlines not to climb but to bang your heads against the rock. Trust me , I have been there.

I do know quite a bit about land and access. If you're familiar with north Jersey I was involved in the Jungle Habitat talks over weather the land should be used for atv or for mountain bikes. That was over 10 years ago in the issue has yet to be resolved. The irony is that both ATVs and MTBs have learned to share the area even though they are both on that land illegally.

My dad use to have this saying " the masses are asses". Once the crowds are in Ramapo I don't think it will ever be the same. Just ask older guys what the Gunks use to be like in the sixty's. Then you'll get a better picture! They can keep their regulations, traffic, parking problems, and fees .

But my biggest fear is that this will end up being just another episode of Jon's Adrenaline video series . I will PM or email you my #. I think I understand what you are trying to do, but I still have questions.

Tony 'Alpiner'

gmiani · · Rockland Cty, NY · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 5

I haven't developed anything to date. I had nothing to do with the guidebook. I am currently trying to get us out of this mess. No one had permission to climb or access that property...before PIPC owned it or now that they do. All I said was that Jon thought he had gone through the proper channels (and it doesn't help that he was encouraged by the local town supervisor who should have known better that dealings with land access are complicated and need to be fully identified).

Trust me guys, I'm not happy about bolts either when they aren't needed. But I think you can agree that some walls simply won't take gear. And others aren't conducive to toproping. And in some cases, it can actually be better for the flora if bolted anchors are put into place, saving trees and impacted soil above from constant toproping/rapping. I'm not saying we should start bolting everything. I'm saying that we need to have the discussion and come to a consensus for the area. Removing bolts can and should be part of that discussion.

Part of being involved means getting to voice your opinion about them, express your climbing ethic, and hopefully steer the community in the right direction.

I've personally noticed the proliferation of multiple parallel foot trails. Nothing we do is more impactful (as climbers) than where we walk. One of my missions is to ensure intelligent trail creation there.

You're right...people in general can be quite inconsiderate of others trying to enjoy the same space. If (when) we get permission to climb there again, I hope that we can put up a notice board that reminds people to enjoy the area responsibly AKA "don't be an asshole" (along with community info and warnings about things like ticks...they're bad out there). Unfortunately, those signs are usually only read by already considerate people...but I digress.

Please keep your eyes on the FB page for the next meeting and I hope everyone can come out to make their voice heard.
-gabe

kilonot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 0

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish with this rant? Are you looking for a personal apology?

Some people share your opinions and some do not. Regardless of what the situation was before, what mistakes were made and by who, we all know the current situation. Vilifying someone because you do not agree with him does not accomplish anything toward what I can only assume is your shared goal of having legal access to the Torne Valley cliffs.

The bolting has nothing to do with the current state of access.

al piner · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 205

cms829- I agree with you 100% on the tree cutting.Power co. would have chopped everything in sight, not just to the end of the cliff. I am sure it was climbers, but I did remove my post questioning the powerline boyz (yes,sarcasm) because I sincerely believe they had nothing to do with it. I just hope they learned just how easily something can be misconstrued when you put pics like that on the internet.

As for bolts, just paint those fvckers and most non climbers wont even know they are there.

What's the lesson ?
Let's all say it together.......low profile

Jon Crefeld · · New Jersey · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 290

You know I'm actually getting to like you guys. God forbid, this isn't easy, but I understand precedents are being set, and long after I'm gone the rock and our code of ethics will be the legacy.

So, let's go. What we talk here is what is best for the climbers in the area and what is best for the Powerlinez/Torne Valley. And I may guide, but I've been a climber for 22 years and only guided for 3. There is no financial ulterior motive for me, guiding isn't a day job and it isn't real profitable! I don't represent the AMGA or the Access Fund, though I have a great deal of respect for both and thank them for supporting all of us.

What I'd like to represent is the climbers. So, I answer to you. And as fellow climbers I might want to start by telling you all to ... Just kidding! The land managers are reading these public forums as well, so I'll keep it professional.

And to the point. 5 reasons to bolt the Good Book Wall.

1. The rock is too friable to take pro. tricam blows out
2. Reduce impact on the top of the cliffs. (Whoever has repeatedly cut the rap ring on the Tower Wall, I'm talking to you. Check the descent trail as it gets wide and dusty. Goodbye flora.)
3. There is a strong history of bolting in the area. The Transit Cliffs plus behind Ireland 32.
4. The wall is hidden, the hangars are camouflaged. Has everybody actually been up there?
5. It is right for the future of the Good Book Wall at the Powerlinez. The area is not the trad nirvana that is the Gunks. The rock is not as strong. The Powerlinez has wonderful bouldering, especially high-ball bouldering, and wonderful short steep cliffs. Those cliffs could all be top-roped, but a) impact to the top of the cliff is going to be substantial and b) we all know the thrill of leading. (And let the other cliffs in the area be discussed another day.)

My editorial: Why bolting should be allowed at the Good Book Wall. (area in question)

When I walked up to the wall, I knew it was a sport wall. It's steep and hard but pieces broke off in our hands. Kevin nearly lost his teeth when testing a tri-cam and that confirmed our fears. Now, I've climbed R-rated stuff etc., but a lot of this cliff would have to be soloed, on risky rock, which would be very bad-ass. I could head-point some crazy FAs and dare people to follow, or I could make something really thrilling to share. (And not encourage the public fallout of a fallen soloist.) As a NJ climber, I've spend my share of time at the NJRG or the Gravity Vault, I thought those guys at the gym would love this.

And so Dave, my fellow NJ climber, and I waited. I looked at the bolts on Jackie at the Gunks, the bolt on Keep on Struttin. The bolts at Peterskill, behind Ireland 32 etc. They all have their own aesthetic and inner logic, and so do the bolts on the Good Book wall. Before you decide for yourself what is best for the Powerlinez, make sure you get up there and take a look. When we finally put up those routes, that was a long process, using everything we'd learned trad climbing, in gyms, and on bolted routes. It wasn't an easy decision or an easy process, and now I know that I'm asking you all, the climbing public to share responsibility by public reputation and shared ethic, and you feel like its Cerro Torre (lol) and the decision has been made for you.

But the truth is that the future of those routes is our future now. This is not a mea culpa. I think we did right, and I recommend getting up there and trying some great sport routes. They're hard and you can hang the one's on the far left and far right as top-ropes. And, if a consensus emerges to take them down, that can be done, but you will most definitely want to climb them first. Thanks, Jon

Jon Crefeld · · New Jersey · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 290

And it's been pointed out to me, that at this point I cannot encourage climbing in the area, it is prohibited by the PIPC. I do firmly believe that in the long term we as climbers will be able to evaluate the quality of those routes and the community will take very good care of the Powerlinez. In order to get there, we will need a lot of support and your help is crucial.

And also very important - I speak very specifically on the quality of the rock at the Good Book wall. It is of a very distinct reddish rock that is not characteristic of the rest of the cliff bands. Thanks, Jon.

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90

Tricams will potentially blow out everywhere when placed on a crystal or tiny nub like the one you speak of was. They generate a insane amount of force which is concentrated in one tiny area, the point of the stinger (If placed properly...As a guide, you know this). It was already noted on your blog by someone else that above all, it seemed to be just a less then ideal placement. Placing the stinger behind a crystal is not an ideal placement whatsoever. It may look good, but if you have ever fallen on one placed in that manner, you will know it will shatter and likely pop. I took a lead fall on a 5.11 on Cathedral in NH. I fell onto a tricam placed in the granite, nicely nestled behind a fairly large cystal. I wound up getting hurt that day, as my next piece (a nut) caught me as my toes caught a ledge and ripped the front of my foot up. I didnt climb for several years after that incident. Today, I place tricams a lot. I just placed probably 4 or 5 this weekend while on lead on a 2 pitch mixed climb (Wi3 M4) in the dacks. I learned my lesson and will not place the stinger behind any type of a crystal. An indent in the rock is a much more ideal place for it.

Another arguement is that it is a good sport candidate because the nearby cliffs have been bolted. Just because areas close to this one have been bolted does not mean that this area should be, or that it needs to be. Ive been to the powerlinez, unfortunately I bouldered that day because no one else wanted to rope up. (I hate bouldering...but i digress) Considering I was more interested in the lead potential, I took a walk by myself and spotted many potential trad lines. The rock is not ideal, but it will certainly take both active and passive pro. If you dont believe me, I'll put my own butt on the line and whip off of a #1 metolius master to prove it. Regardless, with all this said, I am NOT against bolting. While I prefer trad, I will clip a bolt if needed. No doubt. Bolted anchors are like a luxury, its pretty nice to save the time. Bolts within arms distance of reliable trad gear, I dont like. One bit. Just because two partners who decided to climb here, also decided they wanted to bolt, doesn't make it proper. What Im getting at is that, in the gunks, the only places I ever see bolts are in areas where there is NO potential trad gear. HOWEVER, the gunks also has some strong rock.

As far as the powerlinez is concerned what types of bolts were installed? hangers? How many ft-lbs were they cranked down to? Or were they glue-ins? I am curious. I am not doubting your intelligence one bit, but Im curious because if it is not the proper bolt for the type of rock, we all know that could prove more dangerous then your tri-cam experiment. If the rock is that soft, glue-in's should of been installed.

If they were put in place to make the lines "doable" for those who placed them, then that' wrong. If there is no potential gear placements, then ok, they need to be there to make it safe to climb.
Quality of rock can be debated all day long, one persons bomber nut, is another's fear. Obviously for the time being, they are there to stay. But as Jon stated prior, it will be discussed as a community later on. Im a big believer that bolts can make a seriously bold trad climb into "just another sport route". And considering this place isnt the Gunks, and there is a very limited amount of climbs, I think each one should be dealt with individually. Meaning that since the place is a smaller crag, there SHOULD NOT BE A GENERAL BOLTING POLICY put in place. I would prefer as a trad climber that this place not be turned into Rumney or the NRG. The only thing I can agree with at this point is that the rap rings need to be left in place.

As of this afternoon I think we should leave the discussion of whether or not the bolts should stay until we are all allowed access, and are all allowed back on the routes to see for themselves. Its a good possibility that the bolts were required to lead, and that Jon is totally correct. The internet is great, but it also sucks. Without all of us standing in one room discussing all this in a calm manner, we can go back and forth all day and never know the truth. For all we know, no laws were ever broken, the bolts should be there, and Jon and everyone else that has been involved, are doing the RIGHT thing. who knows. I guess just because as locals we are upset that a "secret" place has been uncovered and the owners are now enforcing the rules, doesn't mean anyone had anything to do with that except the land owners. We dont all have to agree, but we all do need to come together if any of us plan on ever climbing there again.

cms829 · · NJ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 90

::Cricket...Cricket:: Did I say something wrong?

gmiani · · Rockland Cty, NY · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 5

Haha...i don't think so cms. I think you summed it up with your last line. Thats all I was trying to say this entire time at least.

Jon Crefeld · · New Jersey · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 290

CMS 829, I think I realized that we're all a bunch of decently experienced and passionate climbers, and I've got answers that I didn't just want to fire off, out of respect. Give me fifteen minutes ...

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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