Adding routes to areas on MtnPrjct using a Guidebook.

ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'M SO PISSED!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES I KNOW THE CAPS LOCK IS ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'M SO PISSED!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES I KNOW THE CAPS LOCK IS ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i copeed you, 'cause this is a classic meltdown

Brandon J. Owens wrote:Basic information such as location, height, protection, name, is in no way ever even possibly protected by copyright. Even something like the description of the route would probably not fall under the protection of copyright.

If you really are an attorney, it's mystifying that you don't seem to recognize the distinction between the reproducing of "facts" (e.g., location, etc.) and verbatim copying of a route description.

In any case, the issue is indeed moot (though not for the reasons you seem to think); those of us who are admins on Mountain Project will delete route descriptions that have been directly copied from guidebooks as soon as we're made aware of them.

JL

Re: JL

I'm a little disappointed that I would come under attack for offering, for free no less, an accurate estimation of the application of copyright law to an issue that people are discussing. I understand that some people like to troll posts, and those people I just ignore, but it's surprising to me to find such vitriolic responses from an admin on this website.

I kindly ask that you actually read what I have written carefully, and you will likely change your mind about what "seems" to be a lack of distinction between basic facts and route descriptions.

Also, at no point am I advocating that people copy guidebooks wholesale or even route information wholesale into MountainProject. At some points I do discuss the possible legal implications of copying route information wholesale, solely for the purpose of providing people with an answer to that question, should they be curious.

Re: Jim Lawyer

Thank you for your post. I am glad to hear that (at least one) guidebook author supports the use of their guidebook for spreading basic information (route location, protection type, grade, height) through free open-source mediums (is this an accurate paraphrase?). I also thank you for taking care to distinguish route descriptions, which I understand you to consider to be the creative work of the authors, from the basic facts. I agree, that many route descriptions are creative works and quite different from the basic facts. However, how do you feel about descriptions that read simply "Start in the left-facing dihedral, trending up and right. Two-bolt anchor at the top; rappel shared with 'Some Other' route."?

The parts of my posts that you took possible issue with, such as where I asked "don't guidebook authors want to share?", was directed at the sharing of basic route information; not wholesale copying of their work. Thank you for helping to answer that question, and thank you for compiling guidebooks (I use them all the time!).

Tparis wrote:Jim, Have you ever taken new route descriptions off of MP for your guidebook? I too agree that Adirondack Rock is the best guide book that I have ever seen. Nice work.

This is a very interesting question.

Tparis writes: Have you ever taken new route descriptions off of MP for your guidebook?

Nope, we don't do that. But this raises an interesting problem. I notice that route/problem developers send us (guidebook authors) info on their new routes -- which I edit and post on our web site as a service to the Adirondack climbing community -- and, at the same time, they post the very same info on MP.

This sort of thing happens a lot -- i.e., route developers send new route information to more than one source (multiple guidebook authors, magazines, web sites, newspapers) and each source (independent of one another) base their own descriptions on the same information. I'd be interested in legal opinions here.

Before any descriptions go into our printed book, however, we'll either climb the route or at least visit the area and "normalize" the descriptions.

Jim Lawyer wrote:Tparis writes: Have you ever taken new route descriptions off of MP for your guidebook? Nope, we don't do that. But this raises an interesting problem. I notice that route/problem developers send us (guidebook authors) info on their new routes -- which I edit and post on our web site as a service to the Adirondack climbing community -- and, at the same time, they post the very same info on MP. This sort of thing happens a lot -- i.e., route developers send new route information to more than one source (multiple guidebook authors, magazines, web sites, newspapers) and each source (independent of one another) base their own descriptions on the same information. I'd be interested in legal opinions here. Before any descriptions go into our printed book, however, we'll either climb the route or at least visit the area and "normalize" the descriptions.

Well, the person who writes the description is the holder of any potential copyright. It's fine if they voluntarily share that description with multiple sources; in this situation, the compiler (mountainproject or a guidebook author), however, does not hold a copyright in any description which he or she did not write himself. As long as you have permission from the person who did write the description, it's fine to include it in your guidebook or anywhere else.

Edit: If you aren't copying the route developer's description verbatim, just be sure that you don't copy some other sources paraphrase of the description verbatim.

Brandon J. Owens wrote:Re: JL I'm a little disappointed that I would come under attack for offering, for free no less, an accurate estimation of the application of copyright law to an issue that people are discussing. I understand that some people like to troll posts, and those people I just ignore, but it's surprising to me to find such vitriolic responses from an admin on this website. I kindly ask that you actually read what I have written carefully, and you will likely change your mind about what "seems" to be a lack of distinction between basic facts and route descriptions. Also, at no point am I advocating that people copy guidebooks wholesale or even route information wholesale into MountainProject. At some points I do discuss the possible legal implications of copying route information wholesale, solely for the purpose of providing people with an answer to that question, should they be curious.

Brandon, this is at least the 3rd time someone has called you out for either failing to understand or otherwise obfuscating the distinction between "facts" and "descriptions" respectively.

By my count at least 4 posters up-thread are trained in the law and none of them agreed with your analysis. While you've made some interesting points, you should consider not holding yourself out as the ultimate authority here (admittedly, you're not an IP lawyer) and maybe refrain from making snide remarks about how we're lucky to be getting your advice for free.

Charles Vernon wrote: Brandon, this is at least the 3rd time someone has called you out for either failing to understand or otherwise obfuscating the distinction between "facts" and "descriptions" respectively. By my count at least 4 posters up-thread are trained in the law and none of them agreed with your analysis. While you've made some interesting points, you should consider not holding yourself out as the ultimate authority here (admittedly, you're not an IP lawyer) and maybe refrain from making snide remarks about how we're lucky to be getting your advice for free.

My distinction between facts and descriptions is solid, regardless of what people might think they are "calling me out" on; if you actually read all of my posts from the beginning, then this would be abundantly clear to you. Also, my comment was not snide, but rather intended to remind you that I'm only trying to provide a perspective that may not otherwise be common in this forum. I'm curious, what posters have you identified who have legal training? I'm curious because I did not see that mentioned. I'm certainly not an IP lawyer, but like any lawyer, I have a good basic understanding of IP law, which affords me the opportunity to provide insight which the average person who simply reads the copyright statute may not have.

Anyway, I'm not holding myself out as the ultimate authority here, but if you really don't want to listen to the analysis of experts and professionals, such as lawyers, engineers, and doctors, when they try to contribute their professional analysis in a relevant topic, then obviously I cannot force you to do so. With that said, I withdraw my perspective from this thread; continue on as you were.

On a lighter note, here is some real IP infringement!: 9gag.com/gag/2571548 (Chinese fast food chain ripoffs).

Glenn Schuler wrote: Huh? You lost me there..

It's a joke, Bob D. has put up routes almost everywhere I climb. He's a mega prolific route-setting beast.

The point is I don't really have any personal knowledge of the FA, and I don't inherently trust what's in a guidebook just because it's in print. I doubt most guidebook authors have complete first hand knowledge of FA's either. I imagine they get their info from some combination of original FA documentation or knowing the FAist, previous guides, guesswork, and the fuzzy memory/gossip of local climbers they know.

So, I feel conflicted about including that information and possibly perpetuating misinformation. I guess it's a trust issue. I don't like putting my name next to some fact unless I can personally attest to it. But leaving out FA info also stinks. Maybe next time I'll just cite the guide in the FA info.

OP - "I am curious how people feel about using a printed Guidebook's information for an area to create routes on MtnPrjct.............."

Let's skip pass the discusion of what is legal, and forget what is ethical/moral toward a guidebook author and go directly to what is probably the most important question:

Is posting known route info to online resources, which is easily available from guidebooks, in the best LONG TERM interests of the climbing community? What is in YOUR best interest?

Please consider the consequences of continuing to "rip off" info published in climbing guidebooks and add the info to free climbing data bases when pondering this question.

The time, effort, and financial investment to produce a well researched guidebook is huge, with very little financial rewards. Certainly the amount of money to be made is far less than working for minimum wage, not to mention the financial risk of puttting up the capital for gas, software, consulting, publishing and distribution.
(For example, the guidebook I wrote took an investment of OVER 6,000 hours of direct research and production devoted strictly to this effort. That is the equivelant of working a 40 hour a week job 50 weeks a year for OVER THREE YEARS. It took much longer than three years due to having a "day" job and a family to raise though. Certainly not a minor investment in time and effort)

Much of the time and effort involved in writing a guidebook is NOT devoted to documenting the well known 'trade' routes of an area. Much of the time of doing a well researched guidebook IS spent tracking down and actually interviewing the first ascentionists (Many that may not have even climbed for 40 years and now live far away) and then hunting down and climbing many long forgoten, obscure routes that come to light from this painstakingly time consuming process. I spent a not insignificant amount of $$ traveling to meet many first ascentionists of long forgoten, obscure routes and picking up the food/bar tab from these meetings/interviews in order to preserve the history of and document these routes. By doing the necessary legwork to document these routes guidebook authors can "protect" these obscure, but historically worthy, routes from being retro bolted by subsequent over eager "first ascentionists" and hopefully set the historical record straight. (See camp4press.com for more info about upcoming guidebooks btw)

Most climbers do not have a personal knowledge of the first ascentionist info, or even knowledge if a route has ever been climbed for many obscure climbs, for a VAST majority of routes that they climb or would aspire to climb. This information was most likely, at least originally, gleened from information that was painstakingly collected and published by a guidebook author who was hoping to not lose money on his effort.

If route info that is available in guidebooks continues to be "ripped off" and placed on internet data bases (which allows climbers to use the efforts of the guidebook authors without contributing to the effort by purchasing a guidebook) then guidebook authors will quit putting in the effort to do well researched, comprehensive guidebooks. This includes posting "commonly known" route info because that "common knowledge" very likey originated from a guidebook authors work, and not from hearing about it directly from the first ascensionist. (Even climbing a route does not give a climber insight into the history of the route or what name was given to it)

In the case of my effort to do research I found that many, many routes were previously credited to the wrong first ascentionist as well as some notable routes being mislabeled in previous guidebooks and then passed on as being 'common knowledge" because it was in print or on data bases such as Mountain Project.

Most climbers posting to internet sites probably are not willing to do the hard research that a good guidebook author does. If online resources continue to undercut guidebook authors then we will no longer see guidebooks being published, with the result being much of the historical lore will be lost forever and far fewer of the obscure climbs will be documented and very posssibly many fine obscure trad routes will be retro bolted over by newer generations of "first ascentionists". What we will be left with is a splattering of over crowded "trade" routes, which have easily found beta on these websites, because no one will be motivated to take the effort to document all of the more obscure routes anymore.

For those that want to "do their part" go out and document routes, with verified info, that have never before been published/documented, instead of posting info readily found in a guidebook. That would be a much better service to all climbers who want to continue seeing comprehensive guidebooks printed.

Online climbing forumns are great, but they should not be a substitute for well researched guidebooks. Online data bases should be reserved for posting new route activity, updates, and providing corrections to previously published routes. Leave route documentation to those willing to truly do their comprehensive homework and let the guidebook authors/publishers collect their 3 cents per route (1,300 routes x 3 cents per route = $39.00 of which the retailers take about 50% of, which actually comes out to 1.5 cents per route for the authors and publishers of a 1,300 route, full color, guidebook to share) It is small payment indeed for the service they provide to the climbing community imho.

Rule/Guideline #1

John Jackson wrote:OP - "I am curious how people feel about using a printed Guidebook's information for an area to create routes on MtnPrjct.............." Let's skip pass the discusion of what is legal, and forget what is ethical/moral toward a guidebook author and go directly to what is probably the most important q .....

This resembles Encyclopedia Britanica's argument a decade or so ago; as we saw last month, they were proved wrong. I don't know how this part of the game will play out, but it seems like community/crowd-sourced databases of information may be the future.

Personally, I LOVE a great guidebook; Adirondack Rock comes to mind. MP doesn't even come close to the deepness of information I find in that guidebook. But will this be true in 5 years? I know that for certain areas (e.g.: The Gunks), I use MP to complement the guidebooks and sometimes find MP to be much better.

John Jackson wrote:Online climbing forumns are great, but they should not be a substitute for well researched guidebooks.

As well, maybe guidebooks shouldn't be a substitute for well researched on-line climbing databases either?

I can think of several new guidebooks that have lifted their new info directly from this website, including photo's, FA info, etc etc.

I appreciate printed guidebooks. I also appreciate this site as a resource too. Its dynamic and can incorporate up to date information that a printed book cannot. I find it super useful.

I guess I appreciate both. And, if I'm adding information on a route I've done to the database here, and, I have the guidebook, with FA info, I'll add that in and change it if I know different.

Cheers!

Brian- "I appreciate printed guidebooks. I also appreciate this site as a resource too. Its dynamic and can incorporate up to date information that a printed book cannot. I find it super useful.

I agree with this^^^

Twenty five years ago there were many "mom and pop' mountaineering shops stocked with everything a climber could ever want and staffed by people who KNEW climbing and climbing gear from first hand experience. Slowly the big box chain stores moved in and provided just enough generic gear (cheaper) to take away just enough business from the speciality climbing shops that they could no longer stay in business. Now most of the great climbing shops are all gone and we are the worse for it imo. No shops full of speciality climbing gear that you can actually put your hands on or get in depth information from a knowledgeable local climber working there. Sure you can get the basic generic type stuff from a kid that probably doesn't even know how to tie a figure eight, and it is cheap and convenient.

Posting just enough info (lifted from a guidebook as the op proposed) has some similar issues. Guidebooks are a low volume, very tenuous, financial proposition to start with. Guidebooks (historical research) are supported by not only the climber who bags 200 days of climbing a year at his local crag and climbs every obscure route there is, but also by the climber just passing through who needs some route beta for the weekend. Guidebook authors, and publishers, need even these infrequent users to purchase guidebooks to make a guidebook even a break even scenario. Posting just enough route info, which was lifted from a guidebook in this scenario, about a select number of routes at an area which will convince enough of these "casual" climbers to use the incomplete data online, instead of supporting the guidebook efforts by purchasing a copy may take just enough sales away to make guidebooks impossible to be even a break even scenario. (The commercial printing setup costs to print full color guidebooks would probably surprise most climbers, and the printing is a certain money losing proposition without a certain number sold)

Rarely are there well researched stories attached to route info in online data bases, and even first ascent info is largely left out. If there is detail it usually is of the sort "place the #2 camalot three feet above the horn before stepping your right foot up, blah, blah, blah." If we squeze guidebooks out we may lose much of the history and insight that guidbooks provide, which would be a shame.

What is the purpose of taking info from an easily found guidebook and posting it? To save someone a few bucks so they don't have to support a guidebook for an area? Is the $$ saved really worth it in the long run if well researched guidebooks cease to be written?

There are plenty of new routes and old obscure ones that have never been documented that would be good to post up about, (That actually takes some initiative) that would be more productive than posting info that was obtained through the work in an existing guidebook.

Guidebook authors do not need guidebooks, certainly not financially, and they already know the beta for the region. Imho we aught to treat the long time local climbers that write guidebooks for us as treasures, not try to rip off and torpedo their effort. Having gone through the experience of doing one, I know that I am very thankful to all the authors that have written the guidebooks I have used over the years and I hope those with unique knowledge of climbing regions continue to produce quality, well researched guidebooks.

And..... I hope online sources continue to contribute new information and historical content as well..... :-)

I just saw this thread and would like to chime in as somebody who works in book publishing. My understanding of copyright law is similar to Bowens--facts are not copyrightable (for example, a hike that is 4 miles long is 4 miles long and that's just a fact). But when you string a few words together into a unique sentence, then you have a copyrighted product, and if somebody else uses that sentence verbatim without giving credit, that is copyright infringement.

If you give credit, however, then we get into the "fair use" territory also mentioned by Bowens, which is actually something people in publishing rely on heavily when taking short excerpts from published works without seeking formal permission. First of all, fair use requires citing the original source. Second, fair use has a lot to do with percentages: what percentage of the original work are you borrowing? What percentage of your own product is made up of borrowed material from a single source? As the percentages climb in either case, you start getting beyond fair use. It's interesting to note that fair use is really a judgment call that would be decided in court. There is no set-in-stone definition.

Bottom line is you can perhaps take one route description from a guidebook, post it online, and call it fair use, as long as you cite the source. But when you start taking more than that and putting together a database--especially if you are taking it word for word--then you're into copyright infringment.

And finally, I would mention that FalconGuides is working on a variety of ways to deliver content electronically (aside from standard ebooks, which we are already selling), some of which will be available shortly. With 850-plus active titles, it's a bit like turning the Titanic, but we're working on it. In the meantime, I invite you to check out the full version of Stewart Green's Best Climbs Moab iPhone/iPad app, available for only $4.99 for a limited time (had to get in a plug, right?):

itunes.apple.com/us/app/fal…

John Burbidge
Senior Acquisitions Editor
FalconGuides

John J,
I appreciated your comments but after having seen what is being done to one of my favorite crags on this site I'm pretty concerned that even with routes being "ripped" from the guidebooks the history is being lost. Suddenly "Jan's Face" as in JAN CONN FAist, OG itinerant climber and off the grid pioneer becomes "Jane's Face." Route info is being posted up with photos of people on the wrong route etc. etc. I'm beginning to wonder if in order to preserve the history of the crag its going to have to be on the website. IMHO sometimes you have to meet people where they are and not expect them to show up where you want them to be.

^^^^^^^^^^
My comments addressed posting info from guidebooks, not addding new content that is unavailable anywhere else or correcting misinformation.

"Online climbing forumns are great, but they should not be a substitute for well researched guidebooks. Online data bases should be reserved for posting new route activity, updates, and providing corrections to previously published routes. Leave route documentation to those willing to truly do their comprehensive homework............"

Lots of the route info in online data basis is inaccurate, especially the history, and much of it goes unchallenged for years....maybe forever. We should encourage guidebook authors to continue to research and provide acurrate, hard to discover route info instead of discouraging them by putting the fruit of their work on an online database and making guidebooks unviable to even cover the printing setup costs.

Post what you know PERSONALLY. Were you part of the fa team or talked to them personally? Have you even climbed the route PERSONALLY? Is the info already available in a guidebook that someone spent years putting together as a service to the climbing community?

Most of the route info, especially the history, in online databases derived their info from someone who knew someone etc. who originally read it in a guidebook. What will we have lost if there are no more guidebooks and authors to hunt down the original information?

John Burbidge wrote:I just saw this thread and would like to chime in as somebody who works in book publishing. My understanding of copyright law is similar to Bowens--facts are not copyrightable (for example, a hike that is 4 miles long is 4 miles long and that's just a fact). But when you string a few words together into a unique sentence, then you have a copyrighted product, and if somebody else uses that sentence verbatim without giving credit, that is copyright infringement. If you give credit, however, then we get into the "fair use" territory also mentioned by Bowens, which is actually something people in publishing rely on heavily when taking short excerpts from published works without seeking formal permission. First of all, fair use requires citing the original source. Second, fair use has a lot to do with percentages: what percentage of the original work are you borrowing? What percentage of your own product is made up of borrowed material from a single source? As the percentages climb in either case, you start getting beyond fair use. It's interesting to note that fair use is really a judgment call that would be decided in court. There is no set-in-stone definition. Bottom line is you can perhaps take one route description from a guidebook, post it online, and call it fair use, as long as you cite the source. But when you start taking more than that and putting together a database--especially if you are taking it word for word--then you're into copyright infringment. And finally, I would mention that FalconGuides is working on a variety of ways to deliver content electronically (aside from standard ebooks, which we are already selling), some of which will be available shortly. With 850-plus active titles, it's a bit like turning the Titanic, but we're working on it. In the meantime, I invite you to check out the full version of Stewart Green's Best Climbs Moab iPhone/iPad app, available for only $4.99 for a limited time (had to get in a plug, right?): itunes.apple.com/us/app/fal… John Burbidge Senior Acquisitions Editor FalconGuides

Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.

You work for the most unethical and unscrupulous guidebook company on the planet and you have the nerve to criticize others and then plug your own company?

Nice!

Leeroy Jenkins wrote: Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. You work for the most unethical and unscrupulous guidebook company on the planet and you have the nerve to criticize others and then plug your own company? Nice!

Care to expand on that? Curious to the back story here.