Is 70 the new 60 (meter rope, that is)?

sounds like you need to eat your wheaties son! :) we were doing full 70m rope stretching pitches at the needles and my wife didn't have a problem. she even places more gear than i do! (sometimes).

David Appelhans wrote: But on the harder alpine pitches? A full 70m pitch of hard climbing is alot at once, and alot of gear. If I want gear about every 8 feet that means the extra weight is 30 ft of rope, 4 more pieces of gear (29 total), and more slings in general so the rope drag doesn't get too bad. Not to mention the rope stretch is pretty big for those last 30 feet, so ledges can be a problem. And if I have to rap I can only go 15 ft lower than with a 60. In my opinion doubles or twins are much better than a 70m. It is not the extra rope weight that turns me off, it is the extra gear. And if the route is that easy to run it out, it shouldn't take us long to climb it anyway. Plus I find I can link many pitches with a 60m anyway.

Typically I find that harder alpine pitches are easy pitches with hard sections. Ergo, I still have enough rack to do them on long pitches. the extra rope can serve you when you wish to have the extra 33 feet, but you can't make a shorter rope longer.
So it's only 16 more feet on rap or 33 more feet on lead? That is very true.
While the truth is that it is only about 17% longer on lead or on rap, it is also true that it is only 17% more/heavier rope. So it only does to you in proportion to what it can do for you. If it's only a few feet of rope as an advantage when you climb, it is still only a few feet of rope as a disadvantage when you carry it. Further more, what it does to the leader is nothing - if (s)he doesn't lead a 70M pitch, (s)he doesn't feel it. (S)He only feels the effect of the amount (s)he actually uses.

Saying doubles are better than 70m is a false dilemma/false choice unless you are only worried about rapping and not the length of your leads.
Like I said - even my doubles are 70M ropes, And I have done the Sabre in 3.5 pitches, etc...

Perhaps David's mail best highlights a point I failed to, that it is a matter of personal preference. If you are always at the end of the rope with gear left and no drag- move up. If you are always out of gear and pulling drag before you are out of rope - then a 70M isn't for you.

caughtinside wrote: And if it's really that easy... why aren't you simuling?

Leading hard pitches on a long rope is about how hard you climb - simuling is about how hard YOUR PARTNER climbs...

prod. wrote:Gotta have a quiver of ropes. 60, 70, 7mill static tag, doubles, 60 wall lead rope, 60 wall haul line Prod.

until you're there. you are not there. i would even add an 80 9.1 in that mix if you climb at the creek a lot. if you've felt a desperate need for a 70 then buy one.

Tony B wrote: Typically I find that harder alpine pitches are easy pitches with hard sections. Ergo, I still have enough rack to do them on long pitches. the extra rope can serve you when you wish to have the extra 33 feet, but you can't make a shorter rope longer.

I pretty much agree, but that is usually the reason I have enough gear to run a full 60m pitch. I actually probably don't bring enough gear for a full 60m of hard climbing.

Tony B wrote: So it's only 16 more feet on rap or 33 more feet on lead? That is very true. While the truth is that it is only about 17% longer on lead or on rap, it is also true that it is only 17% more/heavier rope. So it only does to you in proportion to what it can do for you. If it's only a few feet of rope as an advantage when you climb, it is still only a few feet of rope as a disadvantage when you carry it.

Yup, I agree. And these are the finer points, 60m or 70m doesn't really matter that much.

Tony B wrote: Further more, what it does to the leader is nothing - if (s)he doesn't lead a 70M pitch, (s)he doesn't feel it. (S)He only feels the effect of the amount (s)he actually uses.

Pulling up the extra rope has to happen too, but isn't a big deal. The team has to hike the extra rope in though, which to me is non-trivial.

Tony B wrote: Saying doubles are better than 70m is a false dilemma/false choice unless you are only worried about rapping and not the length of your leads. Like I said - even my doubles are 70M ropes, And I have done the Sabre in 3.5 pitches, etc...

For the extra weight I'd rather have twice as long of raps and no gain in lead distance than 17% longer leads and %9 longer raps. Just my preference, which is what is great about his conversation. In the end it's all good. Speaking of the Saber, I climbed the SE corner in 3.5 pitches with a 60m (I estimated the 3rd pitch length a little long in the topo I posted because we simuled for about 10 feet, and I didn't want people to be forced into that.)

Tony B wrote:Perhaps David's mail best highlights a point I failed to, that it is a matter of personal preference. If you are always at the end of the rope with gear left and no drag- move up. If you are always out of gear and pulling drag before you are out of rope - then a 70M isn't for you.

Tony has great advice, see if you are actually fully using your 60m before deciding you need 70m. I have no doubt that Tony and slim actually use their full rope lengths, as they both are quite experienced climbers. However many of the people I see linking pitches with a 70m have plenty of rope left and could have linked the pitches with a 60m. For example, now that they have a 70m someone would link all three pitches on Cobb rock but you can do this with a 60m. Similarly, you can do Ruper in 4 pitches with a 60m, you don't have to wait for a 70m. Anyway, it is all a choice and some people can definitely use the extra length, but in my opinion a lot of people think they need the extra length when in reality they aren't leading full 70m pitches.

For me, the tipping point was that after cutting 30 feet off the ends of it, I would still have a 60.

Locker wrote:I'm going to anticipate the next NEW THING and go ahead and get myself a 200m (and a mule).

Craggin with a mule? You choose the rope, and I'll pick up the
bbq-n-beer.

David Appelhans wrote: ...For the extra weight I'd rather have twice as long of raps and no gain in lead distance than 17% longer leads and %9 longer raps...

17% longer raps too. But yeah, still not the same as 100% longer.

I epic'd in the Black and had to rap with a single 70m-it sucked monkey nuts. There is a time and a place for everything....

Jeremy Kasmann wrote: I use a 70 a lot for alpine routes (RMNP). It is fun to climb long pitches and skip crappy belays. Usually when linking pitches into a 70m the pitches are easy enough that I can run it out a bit and not need extra gear.

Hmm, I dont know about you, but usually there is horrendous drag if you really go the full 70 meters on a trad climb.

The real strength of a 70 is being able to rappel 5 more meters that will get you to a set of anchors that a 60m wouldn't have made it to.

But in a real alpine environment, a single 60 is less clutter, lighter, and generally more than great for really long pitches with all of the wandering that the rope does. That's been my experience anyways.

Manky wrote:I epic'd in the Black and had to rap with a single 70m-it sucked monkey nuts. There is a time and a place for everything....

But how did the monkey feel about it?

Tony B wrote: But how did the monkey feel about it?

The monkey was quite smitten after he bootied all of our bail gear...

JesseT wrote: 17% longer raps too. But yeah, still not the same as 100% longer.

trying to figure out the math on this one...

as for the 200m rope, last time i was at the needles there was a guy using a 200m static to minitrax romantic warrior and sea of tranquility in single shots. he must have had some shoulders to coil up that bad boy!

although i prefer the 70m, i lived just fine with 60m's for quite a while before that, and also 50m's before that. so, like others said, there are tradeoffs and preferences.

i guess i don't see why its so lame(?). perhaps he had an odd day off and couldn't find a partner? the day we saw him, it was cold as hell and he was the only other person we saw that day. i do it every once in a while for this reason, or if i want to do a route that other folks wouldn't be interested in doing, or if my partner bails due to weather, etc.

another reason i enjoy it is because i can have a nice day of peace and quiet and work on my footwork (slab climbing) early in the season, without dragging somebody else slab climbing.