Another HYP/hangboard question

Will S wrote:Here's a different question, would be nice to get you hangers' feedback. I've been doing dedicated hangboard cycles for 4 years or so, typically 3 phases per calendar year. And I continue to get stronger, typically passing my previous bests by about 5-10lb at the end of each phase.

For those of you who are seeing gains from cycle to cycle are you using an additional 5-10lb more than the last cycle through the entire 3 sets or just the last set? I'm assuming that the 7/6/5 rep advanced hangboard workout detailed in the Rockprodigy article.

i keep track of each set individually so for example, let's say on 'grip A';
first set i have 10 lbs on,
2nd set i might have 12.5 lbs,
3rd set i might have 15 lbs. if i 'pass' all of these then my next workout (2 nights later) might look like:

first set i have 12.5 lbs on,
2nd set i might have 15 lbs,
3rd set i might have 17.5 lbs.

after each SET of my workout, the first thing i do is go to my workout sheet, write down how i did, and write down what i think the weight should be for that set in my next workout. if i 'passed' it really easily i might add more weight than just 2.5 lbs (depending on the grip, etc).

sample workout chart

so -
blue 'e' means it was too easy
green 'x' means it was about right
yellow 'xb' means i barely got it, increase weight with caution
red 'f#' means i failed on reps # such and such

you can see where i crossed out some weight values. sometimes i do this on the fly, depending on if i am feeling stronger than i had predicted, or weaker than i predicted. if the number crossed out is blue, it means that i decided to increase the difficulty. if it is in red, it probably means i realized i was going to get my a$$ kicked, and turned it down a notch.

I understand that you should be increasing the weight per set as the reps are decreasing, but when you pass last cycles personal best by 10lbs have you increased the weight by 10lbs on grip A so that the first set is now 22.5lbs second set 25lbs and third set 37.5lbs? or is it that sets 1 and 2 are 5lbs heavier than your last cycle personal best while set 3 is 10 lbs heavier? Sorry if I wasn't clear, and I mean cycle as in the 4 month Endurance/Hyp/Max R/PE/Rest cycle.

ok, i think i understand the question better. i think it will vary from person to person, also it will totally vary on how you have your sets structured. with the 7/6/5 rep protocol, i imagine that your increase will be similar for each set (ie if you got stronger by 10 lbs on the 7 rep set, you would probably get stronger by pretty close to 10 lbs on the 6 and 5 sets). this will of course vary from grip to grip though, and it will vary due to the number of cycles you have done.

i imagine that mike and mark have done a lot of cycles, and maybe way back in cycle 1 they improved by 30 lbs on a certain grip/set. nowadays they might only get stronger by 2.5 to 5 lbs on that same grip/set, compared to their previous cycle.

does that make sense?

Any thoughts on whether hang times/rest intervals would be different if someone is only training for bouldering?

I find that 6 or 7 reps of 7/3 get me fairly pumped and feel as if they are a bit on the PE side and not as strength focused. I know several people who have been experimenting with two 5-8 second weighted hangs per set with the hangs separated by a chalk. This is closer to the Moon/McLeod hangboard program but essentially doubles the hangtime without getting into PE territory.

Thanks slim that makes sense, in this thread and in mountainproject.com/v/perio… people were talking about how many lbs stronger they were from the previous season and I wanted to clarify so I have an idea of where I should be next year (this is the first time I am trying a periodized training cycle).

camhead wrote: I actually do use a sort of sloper at the very end of my workout, it's a large, 45 degree downward sloping edge on an old Metolius board that is big enough to get your whole palm on. I mostly only hang on it with 2 1/2 or 2 pads, though, so it's not really what one would think of as a "sloper."

My anecdotal experience with hangboarding on slopers is in line with Monomaniac - not worth the time and energy.

When I started hangboarding I used a large sloper for the last set. Once I got to 50 lbs of weight I quit training that grip, I did note that I was able to hang one handed on it whereas before I was never able to.

Fast forward several months, I haven't touched that grip at all and can still easily hang one handed from it. I would be willing to bet that I can still do my previous max.

It seems like training other grips (edges, crimps, pockets) is at minimum allowing me to maintain the sloper strength and possibly improving it.

Great stuff here guys, getting me motivated to build a new hang board.

Regarding the 1.5" campus crack, I found out from personal experience that it is a bad idea. I built one in one of my first walls over 15 years ago that really helped teach me tight hands, but then we started campusing the thing as a party trick. Anyways I either dislocated or broke a small bone in my hand campusing it one day and to this day a bone in my hand pops out of alignment when I do lots of hammering or crack climbing. Basically a big knot forms about 3/4 of the way between my first nuckle and wrist and hurts like hell tell it gets back in alignment.

Kevin Stricker wrote:Great stuff here guys, getting me motivated to build a new hang board. Regarding the 1.5" campus crack, I found out from personal experience that it is a bad idea. I built one in one of my first walls over 15 years ago that really helped teach me tight hands, but then we started campusing the thing as a party trick. Anyways I either dislocated or broke a small bone in my hand campusing it one day and to this day a bone in my hand pops out of alignment when I do lots of hammering or crack climbing. Basically a big knot forms about 3/4 of the way between my first nuckle and wrist and hurts like hell tell it gets back in alignment.

Whoa, good to know. I am still intrigued at some sort of crack training system, just in order to isolate sizes that you're bad at, but maybe trying to campus those sizes would be a bit much. And in the end, crack climbing tends to be more about technique than pure physical strength. Most strong crack climbers today are strong sport climbers who transition over to cracks fairly easy, and I'd imagine without any specialized training (with the notable exception of those British Wide Boyz and their basement offwidth).

Regarding the sloper discussions above, I skipped the slopers last night, and, for my final grip, I instead just used a simple, biggish, slightly incut edge (comfortable one pad). Because of the incut, I didn't constantly have the feeling of squelching off that I'd been getting around the 3rd or 4th reps on the sloper, but with 20 lbs on and at the end of the night, it still took me to the point of total muscle failure by the final set. So, more productive, I think.

One more question, while we're at it: what do y'all think of barbell finger rolls?

i'll try to get some pics of my crack stuff in the next few days. i agree that crack climbing is very technique dependent, but at some point you get diminishing returns on working on technique (ie when your technique gets to a certain level how much better can your technique get?). a good thing about the crack devices is that you can work on both at the same time. also, you can get a head start on desert season and not have to waste a few trips getting dialed in.

camhead wrote: Whoa, good to know. I am still intrigued at some sort of crack training system, just in order to isolate sizes that you're bad at, but maybe trying to campus those sizes would be a bit much. And in the end, crack climbing tends to be more about technique than pure physical strength. Most strong crack climbers today are strong sport climbers who transition over to cracks fairly easy, and I'd imagine without any specialized training (with the notable exception of those British Wide Boyz and their basement offwidth). Regarding the sloper discussions above, I skipped the slopers last night, and, for my final grip, I instead just used a simple, biggish, slightly incut edge (comfortable one pad). Because of the incut, I didn't constantly have the feeling of squelching off that I'd been getting around the 3rd or 4th reps on the sloper, but with 20 lbs on and at the end of the night, it still took me to the point of total muscle failure by the final set. So, more productive, I think. One more question, while we're at it: what do y'all think of barbell finger rolls?

I did them for awhile, but was also just starting back at hangboarding and other training so I can't isolate what caused my improvements. I never felt like they were doing anything for me, it just didn't seem to be effective. I think doing a one rep max on a few hangboard grips is a better option and I am seeing positive results with them. I can add 2.5 - 5 lbs pretty consistently and am adding a staggering amount of weight on for my smallest hold.

slim wrote:i'll try to get some pics of my crack stuff in the next few days. i agree that crack climbing is very technique dependent, but at some point you get diminishing returns on working on technique (ie when your technique gets to a certain level how much better can your technique get?). a good thing about the crack devices is that you can work on both at the same time. also, you can get a head start on desert season and not have to waste a few trips getting dialed in.

Yeah, I agree. And crack technique seems much more binary, "either you have it or you don't" than, say, slab technique.

I haven't been back to the Creek in nearly five years (damn, it's been that long?), but I've improved as a climber in nearly every way since I moved out East; power, strength, endurance, even crack technique in some ways. It would be interesting to go back to the Creek and see if my RRG endurance actually helps on crack endurance.

camhead wrote: One more question, while we're at it: what do y'all think of barbell finger rolls?

http://www.mountainproject.com/scripts/Search?query=heavy+finger+rolls

The training threads have definitely been interesting lately, and I want to throw another idea out there. I’m not sure I buy repeaters as the best way to increase finger strength (or Hyp or whatever). I say this because of all the training materials I have read, I can’t find many recommendations for using repeaters for finger strength other than the Rockprodigy article, the Beastmaker site, and Eric Horst.

On the other hand there is a ton of really good climbers and trainers who use short single hangs of 5-10” with 2-3’ of rest between. I think this has been discussed before and it has been suggested that these shorter hangs might be considered Max R and not Hyp, but I don’t see any other training plans making that distinction and most refer to deadhangs simply as developing finger strength. For example Reini Scherer (trainer for Innsbruck competition team) and David Macia (trained Edu Marin, Ramon Julian, and Victor Esteller) recommend doing around 20 total hangs, each for 5-10” with a few minutes between. Eva Lopez reduces it a bit more and recommends doing just 3-5 hangs in half-crimp, about 10” each with 2-3’ rest between and that’s it! In fact she even designed a hangboard specifically for use with this method. UK strongmen Rich Simpson, Ben Moon, and Dave Macleod also are on board with the short single hang philosophy. Of course for all of these programs deadhangs are just one aspect along with regimented climbing and other exercises. Here are some of the resources I’m talking about:

David Macia: amazon.com/Planificación-del-entrenamiento-escalada-deportiva/dp/8495760673

Reini Scherer (look at #10): translate.google.com/transl…

Eva Lopez: eva-lopez.blogspot.com/

Moonclimbing: moonclimbing.com/fingerboar… and urbanclimbermag.com/themag/…

It seems like the extensive Hyp plans that I’ve seen here on MP are not used by any of these really good climbers/trainers. I think it might make sense if people did not have access to a climbing gym, but I don’t think that is the case. So what’s the dealio? What is the benefit of repeaters compared to short single hangs?

Also, some might find this interesting. Add more weight or use a smaller hold? Eva Lopez did a small study and found that climbers who used a larger hold with more weight for 4 weeks then used a smaller hold with less weight for the next four weeks had better improvement on both maximum hangs and endurance hangs compared to those who did the opposite (small first 4 wks, then big with weight second 4 wks): eva-lopez.blogspot.com/2009…

Dave Macleods take on hypertrophy is : Hypertrophy happens after many months and years of exposing a muscle to a certain type of force.
onlineclimbingcoach.blogspo…

So my take on this (for what its worth) is that as long as you are consistently stressing your forearms enough, for long enough (months, years) you will see hypertrophy gains but it is going to take a while. Deciding to use short vs long duration hangs comes down to your own personal weakness be it Max R or PE because you can work on it in the Hyp phase as well as its own phase.

Monomaniac wrote:The impetus for change at the time was that I found I was really good at PE and generally sucked at power, so I wanted to move my Hyp training more toward the direction of MaxR.

in the past, when i didn't have access to bouldering or a campus board, i used a method similar to DM etc for a MR phase and it worked pretty well. i would have to go back to my notes, but i think it was something like 5 on 25 off X 4, 3 sets of 5 grips.

here's why i have gone back to the HB routine. i climbed diligently for about 8 years before i started hangboarding, and in one cycle immediately went up about a number grade (both OS and RP). i used the the hangboard for about 4 years with quite a bit of success, climbing mostly on vertical crimps and cracks. then, i moved and my main climbing partner was more into doing easier gear routes (10 to 11 range) so i did that for a couple years. then, SCC came out and i spent 5 years going basically nowhere using that training method, despite following it almost obsessively. every year just barely scraping up to 2 letter grades (or worse) less than in my HB years.

about a year ago, chris plesko mentioned in a thread that he was surprised that i would spend my time beating my head against the wall with no results to show for it. this was a good point last spring/summer i was out with a shoulder injury, so in the fall i went back to the HB and had a lot of success. after christmas i started my current routine, and already i am off to a much better start than when i did the SCC thing.

here is why i think that the SCC method didn't work for me. the gym climbing just doesn't represent what most people climb, at least on the front range. sure, it's probably great for the rifle crowd, but it is painfully inadequate for climbing anywhere else around here. the holds are big and bulbous, which kills your finger strength and makes your footwork go to shit. evry spring season, it would take me at least a month to re-adjust to real rock after developing bad habits in the gym. it isn't the best tool for strength training because there are too many bigger reasons for falling off (instead of strength failure).

another problem with the gym is that the distances between the holds don't really vary that much on a practical level. if you pick 3 climbers - one who is hella short, one who is about 5'9", and one who is hella tall, and watch them climb the routes this becomes pretty obvious. i watch the climbers a lot while running on the treadmill, stretching, etc. you'll see that the 5'9" climbers will hit almost every hold with straight arms and their legs in a comfortable (not too straight, not too bent) position. the shorties are real stretched, and the tall folks either have unnaturally bent arms or unnaturally bent legs. this results in basically every move having the same dimensions. i think the setters try to work around this, but if they try to make a move into a long move, they always bump the feet up. this ends up just resulting in the same scenario for the most part. the shorties will still find it long, the tall folks will still just find it scrunchy. i think they try to make something that kind-of works for everybody - but compromise breeds mediocrity.

watching a ton of people at the gym, i see basically the same thing with others using the SCC program. don't get me wrong, there are a few that i have seen who have had a lot of success with this method, but the vast majority that i have seen make a quick improvement from 5.10 to 11+ or maybe 12-, and just hit a brick wall. i won't say that the SCC program had no improvement on my climbing - i improved in some ways, but the key thing is that this improvement wasn't enough to overcome the shortcomings. overall in the grand scheme, i think it was probably a good thing, but i should not have done it for so long. maybe just 2 years would have been better.

this cycle i am trying a hybrid workout, where my first priority is the HB workout to get my strength back, and my second priority is climbing in the gym, basically to keep my stamina/PE/movement/accustomization to trying hard at a maintenance sort of level.

we'll see how it goes...

JLP wrote: My related question, if you have truly trained hypertrophy, shouldn't your arm get bigger? Have any of you actually measured and/or tracked your forearm circumference?

Actually, yes. Not tracked, but measured a few times over the years that I've been training seriously and they are bigger.

The subject is ridiculously complex, being multi-variate. That said, I'd recommend this paper/thesis, specifically Chapter 2 the review of lit. The takeaway is that in the first couple of months, the gains are mainly neurological, the remainder of the first year they are primarily hypertrophy related, and then a third round of mostly neurological comes into play.

digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cg…

To add to the complexity, we're dealing with isometrics where the neural effects are even more complicated than concentric/eccentric.

And BTW, MacCleod is, to put it nicely, way off base WRT hypertrophy. There are many, many studies that show significant hypertrophy within months in untrained subjects. A sample:

research conducted by MacDougall et al, in which untrained young men increased the muscle fiber area in their triceps brachii by 33% and 27% in Type II and Type I fiber respectively after six months of resistance training.

JLP wrote: That's kind of where my head is at here as well. I'm aware of the Anderson resumes (sample of 2), but there are also a lot of 11's and 12's in the profiles above - not exactly elite - just has to be said to keep things honest here, IMO. Lots of 12 and 13 climbers out there who basically just climb. My related question - if you have truly trained hypertrophy, shouldn't your arm get bigger? Have any of you actually measured and/or tracked your forearm circumference? Not that some great advice and very good data points haven't come out here and in other threads - by everyone. I just don't think the “common” of what is being conveyed is a panacea.

Well, Ryan Palo has had pretty significant gains with high reps (3 sets of 7x7, 6x7, 5x7 per grip). So, sample size of 3.

powercompanyclimbing.com/se…

I'm still very much experimenting with what will work for me, and yeah, in future cycles I might try fewer reps and more weight. I'm really looking forward to see if/how this will improve my spring season. And, my profile on here is pretty sparse, and doesn't reflect my climbing resume :)

So a few things have come up, I wrote the following in response to some questions in the Powercompanyclimbing site:

Lee CujesJan 21, 2012 10:05 PM
Thanks for posting this. Very interesting stuff, and what's great is that it's vastly different to what I am currently doing, which further demonstrates the versatility of the humble workout.

A few points I found interesting:

1. Doing a set of 6-7 reps is the classic 'repeaters' exercise which has been around for a long time. I do certainly think there is a hypertrophy (muscle building) element to this exercise, but really, you're developing a pump as well. This goes into power endurance (anaerobic endurance). I'm not saying this isn't useful (it's still awesome training), but for true hypertrophy, you shouldn't be getting pumped, and you should be doing more maximal hangs, and this is achieved with one arms, taking weight off as necessary with a counterweight system where you hold the rope (attached to weights through a pulley) with your free hand.

2. Ryan uses the same weight across all grips. I just can't see how this can be specific enough. For example, on a four finger edge I am going to be twice as strong (more actually) than on front two pockets. The intensity therefore is going to be all over the place. I (personally) want to be maximising (and increasing) my intensity across the different grip types.

3. Ryan, don't bother building a hangboard. Just buy a Beastmaker 2000. More than enough extreme grips there for you.

Thanks again for sharing your system. I used to use a system very similar, and have now switched to what I consider a more pure HYP setup (and am seeing great improvements), but I will still employ repeaters throughout certain phases in the year (particularly when transitioning into PE phases).

Cheers
Lee Cujes
upskillclimbing.com

(me)
I agree with you about the duration of repetitions. The goal should be to achieve failure from the set and not to carry a pump between sets. Let me clarify this. I used to use different durations to avoid a building pump maybe 5-6sec hangs, with a 5sec rest between repetitions. As I got better at the exercise, I shortened the duration of the rest and increased the repetition. Never was I carrying a pump. I always thought that this type of training fell into the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy camp.

As for the one-arm hangs, Im not sure I follow your logic. I understand the need for isolation, but I do not see how that is more difficult that adding weight. As for the time commitment, I simply do not have the resources.

I didnt mention this in the article, but I do an additional 7 sets of single rep max hangs to address sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. I picked this up from Bill Ramsey, called The Rule of Seven ( in reference to the youngest age you can date...your age minus seven ). In this exercise my objective is to achieve failure within 7sec. This is followed by 70sec rest. Here I do change weight for each grip.

For the weight/grip issue, I control intensity by the grip I use. So a terrible crimp with four fingers feels about the same a medium pocket with two fingers. If I worked pockets more, your ( and many other's ) approach would be the proper way. Im quite strong on monos and two finger pockets. I spend the majority of my time working opened handed crimps ( like the kind found at my home crag ).

You also mentioned using the hangboard as a power endurance trainer. I think this is an interesting concept. I’ve usual used the standard methods: 4x4s, intevals, linked sequences, etc. I think this might be a useful tool in my kit.

Thanks for the Beastmaker suggestion. I might give that a shot.

BTW if you ever noticed a vistor from Bend Oregon on your site, that was me. Excelent resource you have there. Thanks again for your input.