Mountain Project Logo

Being a climber means not being an adult?

Original Post
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

So I was having this discussion with my head setter last night after work. We were talking about why some climbers think that they have to be homeless, dirt-bag, live out of a truck, get high and eat beanie weenies type to be considered a climber, and to climb hard as well.

Yea, it'd be great if I could live out of a van in the hills around the New River Gorge and migrate to the desert during the winter, but I have a dog, a girlfriend, and an engineering degree that I'm still trying to find a job with. So maybe if I didn't have any of that going on, I could work just a few months a year and travel and live out of a tent and my VW.

But I have that stuff and still climb hard by most standards. I do want a real job so I can make real money and have the things I want. What I mostly want is to climb, but I do like shooting and have a terrible addiction to fine 1911 pistols. I don't actually like marijuana (all for legalization though), I cook fairly well, work extremely hard when I have a job and am working pretty hard to find one.

So why do so many climbers feel like they can't fit into society and still climb hard? The guys that don't get credit for what they do are the ones that work 40hrs a week and climb 5.13/put up new routes/climb big peaks/go on big missions and still have a family and a job and a dog.

Jay Samuelson · · Colorado · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,896

Most of the guys I know who climb 5.13/bolt routes are working full time jobs and have families. In fact i'm the only one I can think of who lives more along the 'dirtbagger lifestyle', and I'm probably the worst climber/bolter of the bunch! I think it's an outdated idea that you have to dirtbag to be a 'climber' or to climb hard...

Stiles · · the Mountains · Joined May 2003 · Points: 845
Jackie K · · Denver, CO · Joined May 2009 · Points: 81

"work 40hrs a week and climb 5.13/put up new routes/climb big peaks/go on big missions and still have a family and a job and a dog."

Not only does your description sound like more of a challenge than living out of a car (which has it's place, don't get me wrong) but many climbers consider it to also be a more balanced, dynamic, and fulfilling way to live life. Perhaps another way to think about what you are saying is - why do climbers feel like they have to be one dimensional? Singularly obsessed with climbing in order to climb hard? There are many examples of super hard climbers that were probably obsessed with climbing but did not allow that obsession to limit them to one realm. Pat Ament is one of the first hard core climbers I have come across in my readings that has pursued a myriad passions including rock climbing to their fullest. Just take it from Royal Robbins himself: "Pat continues to amaze me with the power of his mind, and the depth of his insights. I am also amazed by the breadth of his mastery of disparate disciplines."
patament.org/
One of the greats of our time has set an admirable example by being a person of great depth and breath.

Tim M · · none · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 293

Each their own. If your doing what is best for you why do you care?

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
Sam Stephens wrote:We were talking about why some climbers think that they have to be homeless, dirt-bag, live out of a truck, get high and eat beanie weenies type to be considered a climber, and to climb hard as well.
Nice stereotype!
Sam wrote:So why do so many climbers feel like they can't fit into society and still climb hard?
Why do you care? Climbing is what it is to you. It means something else to other people. Do you feel something lacking in your current approach? Had you ever considered that maybe dirtbagging has appealing components that might not be related to "climbing hard"?
Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989
Timmamok wrote:Each their own. If your doing what is best for you why do you care?
Because the continuous reinforcement of dirtbag-as-the-ideal is ingraining the notion that climbers are not answerable to anyone, not a boss, not a spouse, nothing, which in turn leads to deeply destructive practices by a group of climbers who honestly believe that they can live their life without in any way impacting others.
Kalil Oldham · · Jersey City, NJ · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 55
Nick Stayner wrote: maybe dirtbagging has appealing components that might not be related to "climbing hard"
Amen. Climbing hard is cool. I also like climbing all the freaking time.
Colonel Mustard · · Sacramento, CA · Joined Sep 2005 · Points: 1,241
Brian Scoggins wrote: Because the continuous reinforcement of dirtbag-as-the-ideal is ingraining the notion that climbers are not answerable to anyone, not a boss, not a spouse, nothing, which in turn leads to deeply destructive practices by a group of climbers who honestly believe that they can live their life without in any way impacting others.
You make it sound like an epedemic or some kind of conspiracy. Sure, dirtbags can be annoying, and the larger percentage of posing faux baggers are even more so. So what? I wouldn't call it "deeply destructive" any more than living any other lifestyle. People who think they have the inherent right to dictate what others' values should be scare me a lot more than some aimless vagabonds.
Sam Stephens · · PORTLAND, OR · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 1,090

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing anyone. Just creating a dialogue. I didn't mean to come off as condescending or stereotypical.

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
Brian Scoggins wrote: Because the continuous reinforcement of dirtbag-as-the-ideal is ingraining the notion that climbers are not answerable to anyone, not a boss, not a spouse, nothing, which in turn leads to deeply destructive practices by a group of climbers who honestly believe that they can live their life without in any way impacting others.
Wow, Brian. Don't you think this might be a little bit extreme? Care to provide some examples of "destructive practices"? And no, you can't use Alf as your example :).
Who's more destructive in the bigger picture? The dirtbag who is entrenched, with or without a vehicle, for 2 months in Yosemite Valley or the Boulder/SLC types (sorry, couldn't help myself) who point their fancy sportmobiles to the Creek/Tensleep/Lander etc... every weekend?
Who is this "group" you refer to with such disdain? And who's doing the reinforcing?
Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989
Nick Stayner wrote: Wow, Brian. Don't you think this might be a little bit extreme? Care to provide some examples of "destructive practices"? And no, you can't use Alf as your example :). Who's more destructive in the bigger picture? The dirtbag who is entrenched, with or without a vehicle, for 2 months in Yosemite Valley or the Boulder/SLC types (sorry, couldn't help myself) who point their fancy sportmobiles to the Creek/Tensleep/Lander etc... every weekend? Who is this "group" you refer to with such disdain? And who's doing the reinforcing?
Indian Creek. We are losing that resource because every dumbass with dredlocks and a subaru thinks its his god-given right to shit all over somebody else's property despite repeated, loud reminders that their actions have consequences.

Ten Sleep. If we still have that free camping along the old highway in 10 years, it will be because Alli Raney has switched from leaving nasty notes on peoples' cars to hitting non-team players with a 2x4.

Red Rocks. You think the camp nazi started out so mean? I'd get irritated too when I'm tasked with enforcing rules that nobody in that campground seems the least inclined to follow, from trying to poach campsites to partying after quiet hours.

Roadside Crag, Red River Gorge. Closed, because we couldn't follow the rules of the area.

See the trend? I strongly doubt that Alf is the problem, its the thousands of climbers who have the means to pay for things but see what he's doing as the ideal, so they don't, to stick it to the man. And companies from 5.10 to Patagonia reinforce it. "Dirtbag Diaries" "Quit your job" "Climb now, work later". We've taken a group of social misfits, unable to keep a steady job, and made them into saints. Their example is unsustainable for more than a few hundred in the country, and even those few hundred MUST have be independently wealthy if they want to live that life in a way that doesn't specifically harm access by failing to pay for access fees, camping, etc, or stealing food off of other people's plates.

This libertarian, iconoclast, outsider climber as a workable, responsible way to live died with disco. We are a major user group now, with politics and culture as diverse as the rest of the country (although almost uniformly upper-middle class), so the expectation on the part of land managers that we will all act with the same respect and maturity as the few dozen who showed up every winter back in the 60s is a spectacular way to accelerate the destruction of irreplaceable resources.

If you're above college age, have a steady job, but still "dirtbag" while on climbing trips, you are the problem.
Finn The Human · · The Land of Ooo · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 106
Old Custer wrote: ... the larger percentage of posing faux baggers are even more so.
These kinds of guys make me laugh. I met a couple of them in Maple last year. They drive around the country in the Subaru their mom bought for them, camp on the side of road, have dreads, smoke weed, and think they are dirt bagging it. I even bought it for a little bit, until they invited us to stay on their yacht in California sometime or to come visit them at their 2nd house in Park City and then decided spur of the moment that they were going to spend a month in India starting 2 weeks from then. Weird dudes.
Peter Franzen · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,730

Great post Brian!

Dirtbagging has been glorified in many forms in this country, from Thoreau, to riding the trains in the early 20th century, to the Stonemasters, to "backpacking around Europe", and beyond. It has its merits and I think some people (read: Alf) need to live that kind of lifestyle but it simply isn't sustainable for everyone to do it, and it definitely isn't as fulfilling and glorious as people make it out to be.

There's a spectrum of people that range from the full-time lifer dirtbags to the people who keep a $250,000 Earthroamer XV-LTS in their garage for weekend trips, but it does feel like people tend to associate "real" climbers as those who trend towards the lower end of the bunch. Maybe that's just our perception that we get via the magazines, videos, and the scene at the crags though; after all, there's nothing less newsworthy or more boring than a responsible yuppie. :)

It's funny to watch how some people transform as soon as they leave for a week-long climbing trip too. They go from a posh apartment and $8 six-packs of beer to extolling the virtues of ramen mixed with baked beans for 5 nights in a row, and won't think of drinking anything but High Life that they bummed from the guys in the next campsite over.

Sure it's nice to leave our day-to-day lives for a while, but I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't enjoy staying at the Palms Place spa for 2 nights the last time I was at Red Rocks instead of camping in the windblown dustbowl.

Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315

Brian, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't completely understand what you're talking about. You may think you know what you're seeing, but unless you're out there interacting with people, you don't really know shit. You need to remember that this thread was started in regards to full-time climbers. Right?
How do you know the "dirtbags" are ruining the Creek? Are you a dirtbag yourself? I have spent a lot of time in the Creek (though not nearly as much as many of you Coloradans), including stints as a full-time "dirtbag". By FAR, the biggest impact I saw was from the idiot Coloradan and SLC weekend warrior types, who generally seem to roll in, get wasted, poop on things, climb a little bit, and then roll out Sunday afternoon. I would argue that the more entrenched "dirtbags" actually play a MUCH larger role in the maintenance and upkeep of the resources in the Creek by cleaning up their f'n mess! All these yuppies rolling down with their limited amount of time seem way more focused on their own agenda of partying and "sending" than they do about the long term impact they're having on the Creek.
The SAME goes for Tensleep. A friend of mine who's been climbing there lives in Sheridan, WY and thus is as much a local as anyone to the area (besides Rainey). Over the last 3 or 4 years, he can vouch for the explosion in Tensleep's popularity (aided in no small part by massive climbing media hype). Guess the color of the license plates filling up the parking lots? Granted, people from this same state are responsible for the development of the vast majority of the area, but that's not the issue.
Have you ever been to the Red? Do you really think the Roadside Crag closures resulted from the actions of full-time "dirtbags"? You should take a trip out there if you actually care and get to know some of the locals (and yes, I also mean people on an extended road trip) and see firsthand the amount of diplomacy and advocacy that these guys put in to navigating these issues with landowners/managers out there. Puts most western crags to shame.
I don't think anyone ever claimed that the "libertarian, iconoclast, outsider climber" was a "workable, responsible way to live" as you state in yet another stereotypical statement. It may be glorified, but not because it's a responsible and workable way to live.
And bringing Patagonia into this... man, you guys need some respect for rock climbing history. These are our ROOTS. And I am proud as hell to be part of that tradition.
You say they glorify dirtbags eh? Is that why they got rid of Dean Potter when he climbed Delicate Arch? Come on man! Inside of every Patagonia catalog is at least one essay on pertinent environmental issues, sometimes written by "dirtbags", and information on how you can help. You shouldn't vilify them because they celebrate the rich counterculture history of climbing (of which Chouinard was an integral part). A history well-documented by beautiful photography and some of the best climbing writing ever, which makes for nice expensive coffee table books that can put part of their proceeds back into causes that benefit Yosemite.
Try not to make so many judgements based on stereotypes.

Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989
muttonface wrote:Aside from that, if some rich kid that can afford to live outside wants to lie to himself and others to satisfy some kind of trendy acceptance/image compulsion, he or she is really only hurting themselves.
If only it was just some rich kid who was otherwise following all the rules, then they'd only be hurting themselves. Unfortunately, its some rich kid who wants to be part of this mythical (as in fictional) climber tradition of sticking it to the man, and you can bet your ass that it only takes a few dozen of those (compared to hundreds of law abiding climbers) to really wreck a resource. For a small scale example, look at the damage 20 people cutting a switchback can do, despite the hundreds that don't.

Apparently, the only value we as climbers can agree on is the veneration of the very behaviors that will cost us access to the locations where we practice our hobby.
Petsfed 00 · · Snohomish, WA · Joined Mar 2002 · Points: 989

Regarding Patagonia: I find a lot of their efforts, especially regarding conservation in the region for which they are named, to be a lot more about advertising and a lot less about doing what's best for the area. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

My point was that its deeply disingenuous to try to sell people a product by encouraging them to take up a lifestyle that specifically eschews paying for things. "Dirtbag" has become a marketing term.

I have an awful lot of respect for the folks who make an area their home and love it and take care of it like their home. I have no respect for the bastards who see that the real dirtbags climb everyday, apparently squatting, and figure that the real core of the lifestyle is taking what you want, when you want, because the world owes it to you. Those fuckers I have a problem with.

I haven't been to the Red, but based on the reports, it was a lot of self-styled outdoorsy iconoclasts who saw the signs covered in easily obeyed rules, and decided that somehow, those rules didn't apply to them. The veneration of the dirtbag is, I feel, at the heart of that position.

Funny story regarding Ten Sleep, by the way. The first time I visited, I ran into a woman from Laramie with whom I was (loosely) acquainted. She did the goddamn-greenies rant, then finished up with an observation that since she grew up in Thermopolis, she was a local.

Matt N · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 415


The rest are just posers.
Nick Stayner · · Wymont Kingdom · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 2,315
Brian Scoggins wrote:I have an awful lot of respect for the folks who make an area their home and love it and take care of it like their home. I have no respect for the bastards who see that the real dirtbags climb everyday, apparently squatting, and figure that the real core of the lifestyle is taking what you want, when you want, because the world owes it to you.
I agree with you in this completely. That seems like a no-brainer. Everyone has a problem with them (except for themselves, as a group). I just hate that you're equating all "dirtbags" into this realm.
And I still think you're grossly inaccurate when gauging where the biggest impacts are coming from. Does one faux-hippie, poop-on-the-crypto-soil idiot=100 selfish CO weekend warriors in terms of impact? Because I'd say that's a fair ratio.
ryan albery · · Cochise and Custer · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 290

Being an 'adult'? Grab your lady and load up your vw and go climbing. Your dog would be stoked.

Finn The Human · · The Land of Ooo · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 106

I blame the Occupy movement. BOOM, I just threw politics into the mix.

Ready, Set, Go!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Being a climber means not being an adult?"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.