Airbags, Beacons, and Probes....Oh my!

The Bobby wrote:The bottom line is that no one should get into the sport until they have the resources to ensure their own safety and the the safety of those traveling with them. That includes knowledge as well as equipment.

Quoted for truth.

Just like an avalung, an Airbag is just another tool in the arsenal. It is not a replacement and never will be as not all avalanches are the same.

And just like any tool if one does not know how to use it then it is useless.

It seems as though you exercise all of the common sense and good judgment that would be taught in an avy course, Brian. I think you're right in that the evolution of the conversation has a lot to do w/the responses you received. I know that's the case as far as mine go, anyway.

I honestly do think it's irresponsible to recommend that someone make the choice of a self-preserving device over one that has the ability save both the individual and their friends.

And, while I know there are a lot of people out there who make the choice to head into Avy terrain w/o having invested in any equipment, I take a pretty hard line against that decision. They're idiots or, best case, over confident or extremely ignorant. Just because some people do it isn't a reason, IMO, to suggest that there's a way to prioritize your spending on safety equipment that is safer than buying all of the gear needed. Because there's really not.

No one would only buy skis and go skiing w/o boots because it's simply not possible. I view beacon, probe, and shovel in the same light. It's not possible to deal with the situations you may potentially find yourself in w/o all of those pieces of equipment.

Topic for anyone --

Take all of that stuff off and get rid of your partners. Would you still commit to the terrain?

Buff Johnson wrote:Topic for anyone -- Take all of that stuff off and get rid of your partners. Would you still commit to the terrain?

Great way to put it all in perspective. I know I wouldn't. Hell, it's not because I'm polite that I give my partners first tracks. j/k

Crag Dweller wrote: Great way to put it all in perspective. I know I wouldn't. Hell, it's not because I'm polite that I give my partners first tracks. j/k

It's counter-intuitive -- you would not, meaning you will commit to an unacceptable situation because of the gear you have.

Buff Johnson wrote: It's counter-intuitive -- you would not, meaning you will commit to an unacceptable situation because of the gear you have.

yeah, that's exactly what i'm admitting. i don't suspect that i'm telling you anything you don't already know in saying that human psychology and decision-making criteria are the root causes associated with most avalanche incidents.

edit to add: i also wouldn't commit to that crux move i can't reverse if a trusted friend weren't on the other end of the rope and that bolt below didn't seem solid. i will if those pieces are in place. but, there's always the possibility that the bolt isn't actually solid or that my friend will make his first big belay error.

ok,

all good stuff. But unless EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the group has an airbag and decides to give up on the Beacon, probe and shovel I will never travel in avy terrain without everyone in my group having the tools. I ain't gonna go with you if you can't find my ass in slide. So the bags are good. keep you afloat. but I think you would be a bit naive to trust that one tool alone.

Brian Abram wrote:Sorry, that was directed at the post above yours. I posted that and your new one appeared above while I was typing. I should've quoted.

Deleted the above post for clarity. Some good reading on here!

Like others have said already - a shovel, beacon, and probe can be had for much less than an airbag pack. If I were going out with someone and they pulled out the airbag pack but none of the other stuff, I'd go home. Having an airbag pack just helps stack the odds in your favor if you are caught in an avy. Having a shovel, beacon, and probe stack the odds in you and your partner's favor. Not having this stuff drops your chances.

I'd take a solid, well practiced partner with shovel, beacon, and probe over an airbag any day. Get that stuff then use the extra money and take an avy class.

I've been trying to think of a good climbing analogy for the airbag pack's importance in your backcountry kit...
The best I can do is the airbag pack is sort of like a screamer that you put on a marginal piece of pro or ice screw you choose to climb past. It lessens chances that the pro will rip in a fall, but doesn't guarantee it.
In my mind, a shovel/probe/beacon are as essential to backcountry skiing as a rope and protection are to climbing. Hence the screamer seemed like an apt analogy.