Moore's Wall Guidebook Discussion

Corey Flynn wrote:While I have not climbed at Moore's wall in some time now, I spent many weekends during my highschool years making the drive out from Charlotte to some of the most bold, traditional, and storied climbing in the state. Along with crowders and the Bald it is one of the places where I was taught to climb outside on real rock, and as a result some of my best early memories of climbing are of pulling on the steep, massive horizontals of sentinel buttress and the amphitheater, and then subsequently experiencing the adventure of having to get down. I was lucky enough to have been shown the ins and outs of surviving Moore's Wall by two of the state's crustiest lifers, Buddy Brasington and Les Duncan. Their local knowledge and the supplemental topos of Harrison Schull are what allowed me to have such great and safe experiences time and time again at this special place. While I understand that not everyone is able to receive such a personal rundown of a crag like I did, I think that a big problem with todays mountainproject, picture guidebook generation is the lack of a necessity to make a personal connection with the place you are climbing at. These modern conveniences tend to serve as a crutch for a user who just expects to show up at a crag and not have to figure out any of the good stuff for themselves. One thing I love about climbing in NC is that after having spent time out west I can still come back here and experience a place like Moore's, 30 minutes from Winston, and not have to look at a wall that is grid bolted, chalked out, and mobbed with people. Personally I don't like the Idea of a full colored guide book for Moore's Wall as I think it detracts from the adventurous spirit of North Carolina climbing that I have come to love. I am not trying to bring a locals only, north shore style, vibe to the tar heel state, I just think that the precedent and tradition practiced and set by the people that put in the blood and time to develop Moore's wall should be respected. I also fear that a modern guide book will make Moore's appear to be a dangerous and scary "trad" crag where pushing your personal limits is not advised, which with the proper experience is not the case. I have seen this happen with areas like Eldorado Canyon and in pretty much any SuperTopo guide book I've ever looked at. I do think that climbing should be available for anyone out there who wants to enjoy it, but what scares me is the current trend of the modern climbing community to dilute, commercialize, and destroy what little adventure we have left. That last comment leads me into a response of "saxfiends" concern of the fixed anchors found at most of the rappel stations around the crag. While at first trusting your life to nuts and chocks swedged together may seem a little disconcerting, these anchors are maintained, in good condition, and I have witnessed a 200+ pound behemeth of a hard man use these anchors time and time again. If you had set the anchor there yourself, as I'm sure you have hung off an all natural anchor before, I believe the doubt in your mind regarding the quality of the anchor would significantly decrease. Saying this I think you should trust the judgement of Mr. Tim Fischer and the quality of his fixed anchors given the amount of time he has invested at Moore's and the experience under his belt. At a time when the cars of climbers were being broken into by backwater locals, Fischer purchased property in that little community before you get to the modern trailhead so that his friends and fellow climbers would have a place to park their car and camp without being threatened with a smashed window or a shotgun in their face. Moore's is Tim's baby. I believe adding convenience anchors would be a slap in the face to guys like Tim, Porter Jarrard, Tom McMillan, and Bob Rotert who trusted their own abilities rather than manufacturing a crag to be convenient, accessible, and worry free to a mass traffic audience. I do not like how the prospect of a modern guide book has opened the discussion of rap bolts, as I can see the discussion of retro bolting for "safety" purposes coming in the not so distant future. The judgement and style of crag developers and first ascensionists should not be open for interpretation, I have never heard of any of the Moore's Wall rap stations failing while being used by a climber. Pilot mountain is a short drive away if one is looking for a "safe" day out. On a final note, I would also like to know the qualifications that E-Line has for authoring a guidebook that includes Moore's Wall. I believe a guidebook author should hold it to themselves to experience all of the routes, or at least almost all of them, in the given area they are writing about as second hand information can be easily misconstrued and there are a lot of pitches at Moore's that don't get climbed that often. If Moore's Wall is getting a full color showcase it at least deserves accurate and truthful route descriptions. Personally I think if anyone is writing the Moore's section it should be Tim Fischer seeing as how he nows that area better than anybody alive or dead, and I'm pretty sure his clocks still ticking, it would be hard for mother nature to kill that man. Although, if approached with the prospect of doing a Piedmont area guide book, I'm sure he would just laugh. A full color guide book in conjunction with convenience anchors would draw in traffic that the Moore's landscape could not handle and accommodate and with give a new meaning to "Zoo view." I can already see the train of boy scouts leaving washboard to go top rope golden earring, the wailing wall, and zoo view, yikes. good luck

+1 Thoughtful response.

Lot's of interesting comments here. Let's be careful and not degrade this to yet another fixed anchors thread. How is that related again? It's not.

I don't think a guidebook will really increase traffic, seeing as plenty of good info is already out there. I will say that a bouldering guide probably will increase traffic substantially. When I first started bouldering at Moores, I'd often have the place to myself on a Fall Saturday. It got a lot more popular, but still far from crowded. However, there are not "tons of FAs" to be done there, as suggested. Plenty of strong folks have been through and done the best lines. Still, I don't think most people realize how good it is there. Lots of strong, dedicated boulderers in Boone replied with "there's boulering at Moores?" when asked if they'd been there.

Oh, and Tim Fisher is "still kickin". Still putting up 5.11+ trad FA's actually. Unfortunately at NC crags you will never see because he hates sharing info, even word-of-mouth style. Our friendship dissolved partially based around that issue. I'll let you guess at what his opinion probably is on this matter.

In the end, I can't see a huge negative to the guidebook. I just wish people would stop pretending that NC has only 3 crags and write a guidebook for somewhere besides Moores, the Bald, or the Glass. Mike Grimm is trying for the High Country, but he's got a job, kids, etc.

Corey Flynn wrote:While I have not climbed at Moore's wall in some time now, I spent many weekends during my highschool years making the drive out from Charlotte to some of the most bold, traditional, and storied climbing in the state. Along with crowders and the Bald it is one of the places where I was taught to climb outside on real rock, and as a result some of my best early memories of climbing are of pulling on the steep, massive horizontals of sentinel buttress and the amphitheater, and then subsequently experiencing the adventure of having to get down. I was lucky enough to have been shown the ins and outs of surviving Moore's Wall by two of the state's crustiest lifers, Buddy Brasington and Les Duncan. Their local knowledge and the supplemental topos of Harrison Schull are what allowed me to have such great and safe experiences time and time again at this special place. While I understand that not everyone is able to receive such a personal rundown of a crag like I did, I think that a big problem with todays mountainproject, picture guidebook generation is the lack of a necessity to make a personal connection with the place you are climbing at. These modern conveniences tend to serve as a crutch for a user who just expects to show up at a crag and not have to figure out any of the good stuff for themselves. One thing I love about climbing in NC is that after having spent time out west I can still come back here and experience a place like Moore's, 30 minutes from Winston, and not have to look at a wall that is grid bolted, chalked out, and mobbed with people. Personally I don't like the Idea of a full colored guide book for Moore's Wall as I think it detracts from the adventurous spirit of North Carolina climbing that I have come to love. I am not trying to bring a locals only, north shore style, vibe to the tar heel state, I just think that the precedent and tradition practiced and set by the people that put in the blood and time to develop Moore's wall should be respected. I also fear that a modern guide book will make Moore's appear to be a dangerous and scary "trad" crag where pushing your personal limits is not advised, which with the proper experience is not the case. I have seen this happen with areas like Eldorado Canyon and in pretty much any SuperTopo guide book I've ever looked at. I do think that climbing should be available for anyone out there who wants to enjoy it, but what scares me is the current trend of the modern climbing community to dilute, commercialize, and destroy what little adventure we have left. That last comment leads me into a response of "saxfiends" concern of the fixed anchors found at most of the rappel stations around the crag. While at first trusting your life to nuts and chocks swedged together may seem a little disconcerting, these anchors are maintained, in good condition, and I have witnessed a 200+ pound behemeth of a hard man use these anchors time and time again. If you had set the anchor there yourself, as I'm sure you have hung off an all natural anchor before, I believe the doubt in your mind regarding the quality of the anchor would significantly decrease. Saying this I think you should trust the judgement of Mr. Tim Fischer and the quality of his fixed anchors given the amount of time he has invested at Moore's and the experience under his belt. At a time when the cars of climbers were being broken into by backwater locals, Fischer purchased property in that little community before you get to the modern trailhead so that his friends and fellow climbers would have a place to park their car and camp without being threatened with a smashed window or a shotgun in their face. Moore's is Tim's baby. I believe adding convenience anchors would be a slap in the face to guys like Tim, Porter Jarrard, Tom McMillan, and Bob Rotert who trusted their own abilities rather than manufacturing a crag to be convenient, accessible, and worry free to a mass traffic audience. I do not like how the prospect of a modern guide book has opened the discussion of rap bolts, as I can see the discussion of retro bolting for "safety" purposes coming in the not so distant future. The judgement and style of crag developers and first ascensionists should not be open for interpretation, I have never heard of any of the Moore's Wall rap stations failing while being used by a climber. Pilot mountain is a short drive away if one is looking for a "safe" day out. On a final note, I would also like to know the qualifications that E-Line has for authoring a guidebook that includes Moore's Wall. I believe a guidebook author should hold it to themselves to experience all of the routes, or at least almost all of them, in the given area they are writing about as second hand information can be easily misconstrued and there are a lot of pitches at Moore's that don't get climbed that often. If Moore's Wall is getting a full color showcase it at least deserves accurate and truthful route descriptions. Personally I think if anyone is writing the Moore's section it should be Tim Fischer seeing as how he nows that area better than anybody alive or dead, and I'm pretty sure his clocks still ticking, it would be hard for mother nature to kill that man. Although, if approached with the prospect of doing a Piedmont area guide book, I'm sure he would just laugh. A full color guide book in conjunction with convenience anchors would draw in traffic that the Moore's landscape could not handle and accommodate and with give a new meaning to "Zoo view." I can already see the train of boy scouts leaving washboard to go top rope golden earring, the wailing wall, and zoo view, yikes. good luck

Well said! I agree with every single sentence that you wrote.

muttonface wrote:Maybe you're even a local that spent the first year or two at the Central Wall and Amphitheater, and now you want to move to the Hanging Garden. Dare I say a detailed guidebook would be advantageous to this person as well.

The point is though that there are already books out there for these people. I had no problems climbing at the Hanging Garden the first time I went. I was certainly scared, but I did know where the routes were and if I needed gear or just draws.

muttonface wrote:So, is the real issue here impact (in the form of alteration, litter, injuries, etc.) that could jeopardize access, is it waiting in line for a moderate because of increased traffic, is it a parking issue... ?

Impact and parking. The parking lot does fill up... I've noticed a change in just the last 5 years. More climbers are ALREADY coming to Moore's. Some dude has ALREADY tried to add bolts to an existing line. I have ALREADY seen someone lower their friend off the end of a rope while doing a contrived TR of a route that was too bold for them to lead. I am seriously worried about these problems being made worse by yet another guide book.

muttonface wrote: It seems to me that the opponents of a new book offer the reason of "we don't need a new one". Although this is certainly not worthy of debate, because you're right, people with half a brain can find routes with existing guides, what will a new book REALLY hurt?

I question the motivation for writing one. If there is no good reason for a book to be written than it should not be written. It isn't a novel. It is a guide to a finite resource. Just because it doesn't hurt anything doesn't mean it's OK for it to be published.

Totally get a lot of the things that you area saying though, and I hope you are right. I guess I kind of have a spot in my heart for this place and don't want to see it turn into all of the other places that I love(d).

I wish I were in a position where I could call myself a local, but as a recent transplant to Winston-Salem I think that this is a very valid conversation that should be considered not only by both sides but more importantly by the author of the upcoming guide. I am of two opinions on the subject. I like many people enjoy color photos, great descriptions of routes, and accurate descent information and there are great places close by that have such guides(i.e. NRG). At the same time, I also enjoy the challenge of getting on an unknown route that looks good from the ground. I think a good guide can have a positive effect on the amount of impact on an area as far as bushwhacking at the base and on top goes. I have found myself scratching my head a few times wondering where the routes were and wasting time walking back and forth along the cliff line. Sometimes this meant that I didn’t have enough time to do all the routes I desired. These problems would, to a large extent, be mitigated by the new guide. To be frank though, my inability to find a route is far less a product of lack of information than it is my inability to find the right land marks and go from there.

With all the above being said, I have come to appreciate Moore’s, it has a certain allure to it because of the unknown. I think that a large part of the point Ryan is trying to make is that just because a few route topos aren’t completely accurate, the information that is already out there is more than sufficient for a weekend warrior or a visitor from out of state. I have noticed a full parking lot on several occasions and it is worrisome. Moving from the west where information on every route can be found in five different books it was refreshing to come to a place where a sense of adventure is still required. It is more than just keeping crowds away, which I selfishly admit I am a fan of, it is about maintaining a place close to the city where the serenity of the mountains feels present. I am sure that the author’s intentions are pure and that it is ultimately her decision to publish a guidebook. However, prior to the scripting of a guide I think it is important to appraise the wealth of information and knowledge of an area that already exists. I also think that it would have been a nice gesture/informative to consult the locals and others that climb at Moore’s regularly about the prospect of authoring a guidebook as well as the need for it. It also seems that pilot has a decent amount of info out about it. Also I think firsthand commentary on the majority of routes makes for a better, more complete guide. Maybe a guide involving the seldom covered places would be more prudent. Sorry for the novel. I’m with Sean and Steve, I’ll take a sticker too.

sean barb wrote:^ Erica, Steve, how about including a "I love Moore's" sticker in the guidebook?!

Sean that's a good idea, I'll pitch it to Bill ;)

To everyone else - Sorry to come in a couple days late to the party. I got a notification saying my original comments on the Moore's Wall section had been moved to the forum, so I just assumed I'd get a notification of any replies...just thought I'd pop in and check things out and WOW, clearly I've been out of the loop.

When I was originally approached by the publisher to write this book, it was with the intention to provide a color, up to date reference that would, in his words "include whatever information would be helpful to a first-timer looking to enjoy a day of climbing in the Piedmont." To me this means finding a balance between providing accurate information about route locations and descent information, while still keeping the aura of mystique and adventure that an area like Moore's is known for.

For what its worth (which admittedly may not be much) I have been putting my heart and soul into writing this book, and have had a ton of fun in the process. My favorite part has been all the personal stories I've encountered from climbers of all ages, ability levels, and ethics stances. It's made me realize just how complex the NC climbing community is, and I'm hoping that the new guide will capture the spirit of that uniqueness by not only providing a good resource for planning a day of climbing, but also an entertaining read on cold, rainy days where everyone is stuck inside dreaming about epic conditions.

There have been numerous points made, argued about, and made again about issues such as cliff impact, crowd control, etc. I think a guidebook can definitely play a role here, but I also think that its just one of many factors involved in access issues such as these. Just like its been noted elsewhere in this thread, this guidebook will not be for everyone. If its not for you, I certainly don't expect you to buy it. However, if you're tired of flitting around between multiple guidebooks and internet databases to locate route beta and area information, and don't mind a bit of colorful commentary on the side regarding historical and anecdotal tales, I hope you check it out.

If there were a good guidebook to Rumbling Bald, for example, a recent tragedy when someone was confused, on a different route than intended and off route may have easily been avoided. Its not about "adventure", its about safety. Erica has been very transparent about writing this guide for a while now...why all of a sudden all this beef with it? Just because you had a hair raising "adventure" feeling these places out, doesn't make you better or make it a requisite for everyone else. Climbing is becoming more popular overall, I've definitely seen a lot more folks climbing now than 20 years ago when I first started. The traffic to all crags is on the rise due to this fact, a guidebook may increase traffic to these areas temporarily but its not going to ruin it for the regulars...just the cynics that don't like to share or feel they have more ownership of a public crag than others. I dont remember people sounding off against the updated version of "Selected Climbs" a few years ago...what makes it so sacred and different from this project?

Brad Caldwell wrote:If there were a good guidebook to Rumbling Bald, for example, a recent tragedy when someone was confused, on a different route than intended and off route may have easily been avoided. Its not about "adventure", its about safety. ..

This is just nonsense. A guidebook (or its accuracy) is NOT responsible for your safety. YOU are responsible for your safety. First of all, it remains to be established that they thought they were on a different route, or whether they just decided to change their intended route. Even if they were on a an unintended route, it is the climber's responsibility to adequately protect themselves. No guidebook is going to do that for you.

Never said a guidebook was "responsible" for your safety...that's silly to even say that. We all know climbing is dangerous. But the goal of a guidebook is to guide, not to almost get you there and then become ambiguous enough to let you adventure around to see if you've made a critical mistake or not.

Ryan Williams wrote: The point is though that there are already books out there for these people. I had no problems climbing at the Hanging Garden the first time I went. I was certainly scared, but I did know where the routes were and if I needed gear or just draws. Impact and parking. The parking lot does fill up... I've noticed a change in just the last 5 years. More climbers are ALREADY coming to Moore's. Some dude has ALREADY tried to add bolts to an existing line. I have ALREADY seen someone lower their friend off the end of a rope while doing a contrived TR of a route that was too bold for them to lead. I am seriously worried about these problems being made worse by yet another guide book. I question the motivation for writing one. If there is no good reason for a book to be written than it should not be written. It isn't a novel. It is a guide to a finite resource. Just because it doesn't hurt anything doesn't mean it's OK for it to be published. Totally get a lot of the things that you area saying though, and I hope you are right. I guess I kind of have a spot in my heart for this place and don't want to see it turn into all of the other places that I love(d).

You're right that Moore's is getting busier. Every crag in NC is seeing more traffic, even Hawkesbille. There are more climbers today, and there's nothing we can do about it.

You're right that there is a fair amount of good info out there. But that doesn't mean it's all accessable. The Kelley guide is the best, but it's hard to find a copy. Look at all the folks at the CCC website trying to find a copy. The "Select" guidebook has great route descriptions, but the scale in the topos makes it very difficult to use on your first visit to a crag. NOBODY using that guidebook can find washboard without asking for help!

If a guidebook has too much information for in it for someone to feel adventurous (sp?), then don't read it.

+1 to everything muttonface said.

tks, what's wrong with having to ask for help? Isn't that part of the fun? Meeting new people, forming new relationships.

Erica, thanks for joining in. I was starting to feel like we were talking behind your back, which is why I made sure to send you the notification. I hope you don't feel disrespected in any way. I'm sure you knew the difficulties that you would encounter when you chose to get started on this book.

Anyways, I don't think anyone doubts that the guide will be excellent and that you are putting a lot of effort into the project. I know how much work it takes to write a guide book... it is daunting really. I hope that you are considering these responses to be part of the culture of NC and not personal attacks.

When you consider that just a few decades ago the CCC was sending letters to Climbing Magazine asking them NOT to publish any info about NC climbing, I think we have come a long way (for better or worse).

Ryan - No offense or disrespect taken. I appreciate the fact that we can all "talk" about controversial issues as adults that sometimes disagree rather than resorting to personal attacks.

You are right - when the publisher first approached me about writing the guide, I knew their would be some pushback. I agree that is just part of NC climbing culture, which I happen to think is way more colorful than other climbing communities around the country.

I have to second Saxfiend's comments and add a bit of my perspective here. Having climbed literally throughout the western hemisphere, in diverse environments from the Red and Rifle to the Black Canyon and big walls in the Cordillera Blanca of Peru, I, too, find all this defense of the "adventure" of Moore's a bit contrived.

Specifically, I think there is an important distinction between the inherent adventure of an area or route (i.e. the adventure necessary to experience a climb involving the very best information) and the adventure based on ignorance. Generally speaking, the climbing community considers the difficulty of a route based on the best available knowledge and resources. If I climb a 5.11 sport route which to me feels like 5.12 because I don't see a key hold in the crux, it doesn't mean I climbed a 5.12. Likewise, if I go to the Bugaboos and don't read the guidebook's description of how to properly approach the Beckey-Chouinard and instead hike all the way around the Howser Massif for two weeks before touching the route, I don't get to claim an ascent of a Grade VII; I'm just stubborn. More committing and difficult routes (i.e. more adventurous routes) get easier because more people climb them and beta gets better - that is progress and allows standards to continue rising.

Moore's Wall has a tradition of establishing routes that, despite being less than 250' tall, are pretty darn adventurous to climb. That is the allure of climbing at Moore's - the nature of the climbing itself. Personally, I climbed enough there to know the logistics of Moore's really well and yet I still had plenty of big adventures there because of the routes I climbed. To echo what Saxfiend mentioned, folks' arguments for not having a good guide to Moore's are not in preservation of adventure but in increasing inconvenience. Moore's still has some potential for new development, including some lines that could be near the roof of the hard trad game. Herein lies the adventure - the unknown and the new. It would be a bummer if this potential wasn't realized simply because people spent all their time wandering around finding the warm-ups.

That is the philosophical part of my perspective. On a more practical level, due to the aforementioned adventure involved in climbing, I just can't imagine that there are that many people who currently do not climb at Moore's who will with a better guide. Climbers just don't behave that way. Guidebooks are as much about documenting history and tradition and managing usage as they are advertising an area. Look at guidebooks for places like Indian Creek, the Black Canyon, or the Bugaboos as examples of this. These places still, by and large (and despite much larger crowds in all - before guidebook publication), offer plenty of adventure.

Moore's is stubborn.

Do you think anyone that is pushing 5.13 trad leads is getting lost looking for quaker state? If so, I'll show them where it is so I can watch someone put up a 5.13 trad lead at Moore's.

I think a lot the fear of loss of adventure comes from one of two lines of thinking.

The first is that new/better guidebook brings in more people and more people either means 1) someone starts trying to bolt things to take out actual route adventure or 2) the influx of people results in more injuries highlighting the bold nature of some of the routes which causes them to get neutered somehow (and then chopped). Short version: large influx of people unfamiliar with Moore's ethics causes a CF and makes everyone look bad threatening access, etc.

The second is that they like the "contrived" adventurous nature of route finding at Moore's. Let's be honest, it's within 30/40 minutes of a decent sized city. You aren't flying to Baffin to make a 10 day push when you climb at Moore's. It stands to reason that the sometimes confusing nature of route finding/descent finding at Moore's is a barrier to entry for people which keeps what could be a more crowded crag, less crowded. No one likes crowds as selfish as that may be. Nor do people want their version of a crag to change.

I understand the fear that people have that fall into one of those two categories. Do I think that either one of those are going to happen as a result of a new guidebook? Eh, probably not and definitely not to the extremes I highlighted above. Will some much less extreme version of the situations outlined above occur? Probably in limited circumstances. Will the situation self correct? Definitely. Like I said at the start of this post, Moore's is stubborn.

Most importantly, am I excited for an I Love Moore's sticker? Absolutely. Am I excited to read (hopefully) new and more complete history sections in a new guidebook about my local crags? For sure.

This has been the most level-headed discussion I've seen on a forum in a really long time.

Now can someone please make a better/more complete guidebook for the lesser documented places in Western NC?

Steve86 wrote: Now can someone please make a better/more complete guidebook for the lesser documented places in Western NC?

No, because the guys out there that know the gold coast and other crags don't want us going in there and finding the climbs. You have to know someone who knows where the good stuff is.

That's sort of true, but not the rule. I certainly know my way around the Gold Coast and have posted detailed directions to my crags there and in other Linville areas on this site. Interestingly, some of the crags I have posted are literally 200' away from other HUGE secret areas that are much better, but I won't include them out of "respect"...

Nathan Brown has posted enough info on his crags to find them, but not all the routes. Nathan represents at least 75% of the development effort down there, and he's not that secretive.

Also, Mike Grimm HAS written a guidebook for a lot of those areas and he is working on more.

fullmantlepress.com/home.html

Maybe if he got some support it could turn into a real, comprehensive, color guide. Oh and if a few certain individuals got over their selfish ways, that might help also.

Why is having a guidebook the status quo? I don't live in WNC, barely spend anytime in NC at all anymore, and still have no problem finding the information I need.

Like Ben said, some the people who are doing the work in the Gold Coast aren't being secretive... at all. THERE IS A GUIDEBOOK FOR THE GOLD COAST!

When I needed a climbing partner for the North SIde at Looking Glass, Nathan Brown drove up there and met me, even though he had already done all of the routes a billion times. He graciously offered to show me around some of the areas in Linville that he has developed... more than once actually.

When I wanted to see Ghost Town, I asked a guy who had been there and he gave me the beta. When I wanted to climb at Cook's Wall, I found the beta. When I want to do routes at Moore's that aren't documented, I go on Facebook and ask the person who FAed them how to find them. If you want to climb the best rock in NC then you need to... well all you have to do is ask. Maybe search around the net a bit, and then go out and have a fucking awesome time.

Just because most climbing areas have awesome guidebooks and most climbers want/need them doesn't mean that this is the right way of doing things.

And in response to people who are saying that the "defense of the adventure of Moore's in contrived" - you are missing the point. No one is claiming that Moore's is some wild and adventurous place. It is a local crag for nearly a million people.

What people are trying to say is that part of the allure of Moore's Wall is that it demands a certain amount of respect. To really make the most of your time there, you have to put in some grunt time and pay your dues. You have to get lost, scared, sandbagged, etc. After a few trips, you know your way around.

This is how climbing used to be, no matter where you were. Just because many places have been dumbed down and many climbers are used to being able to march directly to the base of their chosen route does not mean that it should be that way. It didn't used to be that way - why now?

I think climbers who had a hard time at the beginning of their career somehow think that they are helping by making things easier or less committing for the people that come behind them. This could be said about everything from adding bolts to bold routes to writing overly detailed guides. Somehow we have gone from climbers sandbagging each other to climbers wanting everything to be nice and organized. How did that happen?

The short answer is the not everyone agreed with the belief that everything should be as hard as it was the first time and there was a natural progression over time towards accessibility (in many forms) in the sport. Beta/bolts tend to be a one way street for the most part. I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with that stance but I think it's fairly obvious.

On the WNC issue. Thanks for the beta. I'll check out those guides, honestly had no idea they existed. No one ever mentions them so I assumed they just didn't exist. There's a lifetime of exploring in that area.

I understand what you mean Steve. I don't know if I want climbing to be like it was in the beginning either. I couldn't have climbed even half of the routes that I have without cams and sticky rubber - and yes guidebooks. And while Moore's is bold, it's not THAT bold. Maybe that's why I love it so much - it's perfectly scary and "safe" at the same time.

I don't want everyone to have a shit time climbing their first trip to Moore's. But even if they do, I'll bet that they still end up going back and finding out how great it can be. When I look back on my time there, I remember EVERY SINGLE DAY. I can't say that about anyplace else in the world. I think Moore's has made me a better climber and I wish the same for anyone who gets to climb there. ONe of the reasons it made me a better climber was because of the normal NC beta situation - there's enough, but barely.

I'm not some adventurous climbing master. There are dozens and maybe hundreds of climbers on this forum alone that are bolder, stronger, more aware than I. I also am not one to just "go for it." Hell, I have TWO guidebooks to the High Sierra and I was only there for a month!

The book will be published, and maybe more good than bad will come out of it. But as someone who cut their teeth at Moore's, called it my local crag for years and still say it's my favorite crag in the world, I feel it is my responsibility to challenge anything that goes on there that could change the nature of the place.

The book will be published, and maybe more good than bad will come out of it. But as someone who cut their teeth at Moore's, called it my local crag for years and still say it's my favorite crag in the world, I feel it is my responsibility to challenge anything that goes on there that could change the nature of the place.

I respect that.