Moore's Wall Guidebook Discussion

We got into a discussion about a new guidebook that is coming out for the NC Piedmont area. I thought it would be better off in the forums instead of on the Moore's Wall section. Hope no one minds.

I screwed up moving the first comment. Sorry.

?muttonface? wrote:

I'd love to have a general overhead view that shows the different areas (i.e. Circus Wall, Sentinel Buttress, Amphitheater, etc.) and the routes (numbered perhaps?) for each area; kinda like the NRG guidebook or Seneca guidebook. Also approach trails to each area. That shouldn't be that difficult. Compared to other places like NRG, Moore's is relatively small, so such a guide is totally feasible. I've only been to Moore's once, and finding the routes I wanted to climb took a little longer than I would have liked. Without locals there familiar with the area, I probably wouldn't have found them. Rappel stations are a whole other story, but I don't have a huge problem hiking down the gulley if I can't find a rap station. Pictures are fine, but once you get to the base of a crag, it can sometimes be difficult to pick out features on a route or even the base of a route based on a picture. If anyone knows of such a resource, I'd love to see it and would greatly appreciate your help. I love the place and I want to spend more time climbing there. Thanks in advance.

This post was originally a comment in Moore's Wall

@ muttonface:

I appreciate your comments. I think that part of going to a new area (and climbing in general) is getting lost, getting off route, missing a rap station, climbing the wrong route entirely, getting scared, getting sandbagged, hating life, etc. If you're down for this kind of stuff (and it sounds like you are) then you most certainly DO belong at Moore's. And the reason that I say the guides are excellent is because they include just enough information to get you out there but don't stop any of the above from happening every once in a while.

What I am scared of is this: The new guidebook will no doubt be of very high quality and include a lot of information. This will bring people out there who otherwise wouldn't show up. They'd be somewhere else, where you are less likely to have an adventure. Sadly, adventure is not what many climbers are after these days.

But one could make a very good argument that the new guide will spread climbers over a larger area, decreasing impact on high use areas. I am all for this and hope that this happens. I know this Erica's intentions, and I do hope she succeeds.

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I don't really see that much of a need. MOore's is pretty well covered between the Select book and the Kelly guide. Sure there are some routes that are not described in there, but it isn't that hard to find information about them. I guess it might be nice to have written descriptions on some of the routes that are only on the topo, but again, I just don't think that warrants a whole new guide book.

Same with Stone Mtn, except it might be nice to have a better guide for the N. side routes.

Pilot already has a fairly comprehensive and free guide.

Cooke's is the only Piedmont area where adequate information doesn't already exist (and Sauratown for obvious reasons).

I can't say anything about Crowders since I don't climb there.

If you don't think that guidebooks increase traffic, you are delusional. Cookes would certainly see more traffic if there were better beta. Same with the N side of Stone. Look at what the guidebook for Rumbling Bald bouldering did (BTW I think it's a fantastic guidebook). Just think if there were a Moore's bouldering guidebook. Even though I don't really see a need, I'd probably buy one just because I'm a guidebook junkie!

BTW, why is conversation not taking place on the CCC website?

I would not like to see a Moore's guidebook and would not buy one if one were published. I think the existing info in guidebooks and what can be found on MP and RC are sufficient for finding one's way around.

i am of 2 minds on this guide and the coming bouldering guidebook to moore's. i'm compelled to think that we need more documented climbing history to protect our climbing privileges from further state restrictions. the state parks here have a dismal record of acknowledging the historical use of these cliffs and boulders by climbers. perhaps we nc climbers have not asserted our historical use enough?

on the other hand, i am concerned that more documentation brings more exploitation. with the publication of these guidebooks more people will come. what effect will this have on parking and on relations with neighboring landowners? what effect will this have on the relationship with park staff given that the state parks are under increasing pressure to reduce costs and to operate on shrinking budgets?

our parking lot is already at capacity; this really concerns me because i know first hand how difficult it was to negotiate, plan and construct the parking lot... years of effort and goodwill are invested in getting that parking lot. we need to have frank discussions about how to deal with parking upon the publication of these guidebooks.

sean barb wrote:i am of 2 minds on this guide and the coming bouldering guidebook to moore's. i'm compelled to think that we need more documented climbing history to protect our climbing privileges from further state restrictions. the state parks here have a dismal record of acknowledging the historical use of these cliffs and boulders by climbers. perhaps we nc climbers have not asserted our historical use enough? on the other hand, i am concerned that more documentation brings more exploitation. with the publication of these guidebooks more people will come. what effect will this have on parking and on relations with neighboring landowners? what effect will this have on the relationship with park staff given that the state parks are under increasing pressure to reduce costs and to operate on shrinking budgets? our parking lot is already at capacity; this really concerns me because i know first hand how difficult it was to negotiate, plan and construct the parking lot... years of effort and goodwill are invested in getting that parking lot. we need to have frank discussions about how to deal with parking upon the publication of these guidebooks.

When push comes to shove, I doubt the State will care one lick about the climbing history at Moores or any other area for that matter. It will be nothing but a minor blip in their decision making process.

I share the concern about the crowds, but when have you seen the Moore's parking lot really full? I see it maybe once a year. Maybe I'm not there during peak bouldering times since I only climb on ropes at Moore's and mostly in the warmer months. A bouldering guide for Moore's would definitely increase the traffic there.

i've seen the parking lot full several times this fall and summer, and it was full several times last year... i'm not just making this up.

ironically, you could publish cooks wall and it would likely have minimal effect on crowding. the distance of the approach and the gate curfew, the broken up nature of the cliffs, the briar hells, the slogging on leaf covered slopes... its just not a place that will ever be popular.

A bouldering guidebook to Moore's is in progress from what I've heard. So that's a reality we will have to deal with. The good news is that peak bouldering season and peak climbing season at Moore's don't overlap too much.

Between the Kelly and select books, rockclimbing.com and mp.com there is a fair amount of information on Moore's. Between comparing those four resources + information from locals (my climbing partners) I've been able to figure out most everything I need to know at Moore's and I appreciate it more because of that work. That being said I realize and acknowledge the desire of people who may not have consistent and easy access to local info who are visiting our crag to have better information.

Sure the info for route finding at Moore's isn't as complete as it may be for places like pilot or even a lot of places I've climbed out in Colorado and as a result I've climbed routes thinking they were something entirely else.

The one argument I can really get behind is better descent information. Some descents at Moore's are . . . adventurous. Some of them are a little harder to find than rapping off your last belay anchor's rap rings. (I know, the horror) I would much rather people know where there is already good, reliable fixed gear and having them bushwack down gullies and add extra slings to every tree or knob on a route. While that may result in a slight increase in traffic, it may significantly decrease the visible impact of climbing at Moore's. That's a trade off I can live with.

On the other hand, more access info is inevitably going to lead to more people taking advantage of said access info. There's no way around this. A lot of stuff at Moore's is sandbagged, the descents aren't always obvious or familiar and there are very few bolts. I'd hate to see an increase in utilization of Moore's bring in people who shouldn't be climbing there, get injured and then start to jeopardize access for everyone.

I'm also glad that this discussion is taking place on MP and not the CCC site because I'm curious to see what non-locals that have either climbed at moore's or would climb at moore's with a better guidebook, etc think about the current situation. I'm pretty sure most vocal people in the CCC are against another guidebook. Just a guess. Good discussion so far though, thanks for moving it so we'd see it Ryan.

I was in NC visiting my GF's family in Kernersville for the holidays and hit up Moore's Knob twice. The select guidebook was more than enough to find the climbs based upon moving left or right from sentinel buttress.

The few climbs I did (it was a wee bit cold) felt sandbagged but I have a feeling that was mostly based upon my unfamiliarity with the rock and/or features (I was raised on Tahoe and Yosemite granite) and that messed with my head.

Was the select guidebook perfect? No.
Did i have trouble finding climbs at first? Yes.
Does this mean the guidebook needs to be improved? No.
Do 80% of my guidebooks give me the same problem? Yes.

I do agree that better info about the descents and 2 rope versus 1 rope retreats would be beneficial.

I don't know. For an out of towner, I had a great trip and will come back the next time i'm visiting the lady's folks.

Busy w/ work and will hopefully respond more later but I'm glad that this conversation is happening. I was starting to feel like the old grumpy climber who can't stop complaining about what climbing has become - which is weird because I am 28!

It's worth noting that there is actually more info out there about Moore's wall that most other climbing areas in NC. Hell, there are even two Facebook pages devoted to the place (not counting Erica's) where most of the original developers and stewards are more that happy to answer any questions that get asked. Those guys have minds like steel traps!

Just like everyone else, I've gotten lost, frustrated, sandbagged, etc. But Moore's is my favorite crag on the planet and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I had to earn every bit of success and fun that I've had out there. I paid my dues and my days out there now feel SO MUCH better because of that. I'm afraid that this new guide will keep new climbers from going through the same process of getting to know and respect the place. Not only do they miss out on what it means to be a rock climber, but they become used to having their hand held, so to speak, which will only lead to problems when they venture into more wild and committing terrain.

I guess it's just kinda weird that there is "demand" for another (4th?) Moores guidebook, yet no one has written a guide to Boone bouldering, and only recently did a hand-printed guide to roped routes come out for that area. Nevermind that over half of the routes in Linville gorge are essentially undocumented. Moores is great, but there is plenty of info already. If you are local you hardly even need a book anyway. Yall should go write guides for other areas!

Guidebooks aren't for seasoned locals, they are for beginners and visiting climbers. There will always be experienced, skilled, "deserving" visiting climbers that want to sample the best of your local areas, and should have the option of buying a guidebook if they so desire.

Good guidebooks also benefit locals. They:

- keep people from shitting in the wrong places
- prevent damage to the environment by pointing people to the right trails
- create awareness of local practices
- disperse crowds
- create support in the greater climbing community for your crag

Some clarification for the last point: When your crag comes into access issues, don't expect any support from the national climbing community if "outsiders" aren't welcome at your crag. Climbers care about crags they've climbed at and enjoyed.

I think the idea of a new comprehensive guidebook is a great one, and it has good potential to fill in some gaps in the existing guides. The Kelley book is pretty out of date, and the Lambert/Shull guide, aside from its stated goal of covering a limited number of documented routes, suffers from inferior topos. I hope Erica will follow the example of guidebooks like the Red River Gorge and Tennessee Wall books and include good topos and lots of photos.

Regarding Moore's Wall specifically, I'm glad this area is being included. I have a lot of respect for the North Carolina climbing ethic (ground-up, take the rock as you find it), but when it comes to discussions of "adventure" at Moore's, I find it more than a little contrived. This is not some remote wilderness multi-pitch destination; it's a (mostly) single-pitch crag a half-hour's drive from a major city with a nice parking lot and well-groomed approach trail.

I remember the first time I led Golden Earring and found the fixed-nuts anchor at the top, and thinking to myself, what is more aesthetic and old-school about this than a couple of bolts? It's kind of like someone putting a Studebaker hood ornament on their Prius; it's not going to impress most people. And thrashing around the cliff top to get to the Sentinel Buttress rap station, or putting your life at risk downclimbing off Washboard, isn't what I call "adventure." It's more like inconvenience for inconvenience's sake.

One other thing about the new guidebook -- I really don't think it's going to have any impact on the number of people who climb there. The fact is that the climbing at Moore's is pretty committing (whether getting down afterwards is equally committing or not), and that's going to weed out less serious climbers, guidebook or no guidebook.

Just my opinion, with no disrepect to the Moore's traditionalists!

JL

^+1

Edited to add: I want a "I love Moore's" sticker.

saxfiend wrote:I think the idea of a new comprehensive guidebook is a great one, and it has good potential to fill in some gaps in the existing guides. The Kelley book is pretty out of date, and the Lambert/Shull guide, aside from its stated goal of covering a limited number of documented routes, suffers from inferior topos. I hope Erica will follow the example of guidebooks like the Red River Gorge and Tennessee Wall books and include good topos and lots of photos. Regarding Moore's Wall specifically, I'm glad this area is being included. I have a lot of respect for the North Carolina climbing ethic (ground-up, take the rock as you find it), but when it comes to discussions of "adventure" at Moore's, I find it more than a little contrived. This is not some remote wilderness multi-pitch destination; it's a (mostly) single-pitch crag a half-hour's drive from a major city with a nice parking lot and well-groomed approach trail. I remember the first time I led Golden Earring and found the fixed-nuts anchor at the top, and thinking to myself, what is more aesthetic and old-school about this than a couple of bolts? It's kind of like someone putting a Studebaker hood ornament on their Prius; it's not going to impress most people. And thrashing around the cliff top to get to the Sentinel Buttress rap station, or putting your life at risk downclimbing off Washboard, isn't what I call "adventure." It's more like inconvenience for inconvenience's sake. One other thing about the new guidebook -- I really don't think it's going to have any impact on the number of people who climb there. The fact is that the climbing at Moore's is pretty committing (whether getting down afterwards is equally committing or not), and that's going to weed out less serious climbers, guidebook or no guidebook. Just my opinion, with no disrepect to the Moore's traditionalists! JL

People keep saying that the Kelly book is out of date but I don't understand that at all. Nothing has changed since it was printed. I think it's a better guide than the Shull-Lambert book.

And I don't think that anyone is claiming that Moore's is some wilderness climbing area with death potential. But saying that you can't have an adventure 30 miles from a city is pretty short sighted. Don't you think that people have had this same discussion about Eldo? That place is basically right above a pretty decent sized city.

The reason that Moore's utilizes downclimbs and fixed stoppers is because we were all raised to believe that the less damage that gets done to the rock, the better. I can't speak for anyone else but I learned about LNT before I learned about climbing and while I understand that we are most certainly leaving a trace at Moore's Wall, there isn't a whole lot of evidence there that anyone does anything but hike the cliff line. You even have to look pretty hard to see chalk marks on most parts of the wall. Fixed gear will inevitably need to be replaced because of the wet and freezing winters, and having completely bomber fixed stoppers and hexes makes it a lot easier to maintain the raps w/o having to drill more holes.

The reason that the raps are so hard to get to is so that no one can just walk up and set up a TR. The locations are where they are for a reason. They are either hard to get to, not above any climbing, or both. This keeps people from TRing the routes and I see nothing at all wrong with that.

The Washboard down climb has been discussed over and over and I'll still maintain that it is a completely reasonable way to get down from that part of the crag. Washboard is a steep, sustained and committing 5.6 - if you can lead that then you should have no problem with the down climb. And one person (the follower) can easily do the down climb roped up w/o spending hardly any extra time.

I do agree though that because of the nature of climbing at Moore's, the guide probably won't bring too many new people to the cliff. Most people will probably come once, expecting a sprad crag like the NRG and then never come back. And I'll admit that it will spread out impact by giving some locals more info than they have now. All I'm saying is that the info is already out there and anyone who wants to climb any route at Moore's should have no problem doing so right now. So if that is the case, do we really need a new book?

muttonface wrote:I didn't know that bouldering would be included in the new guide. I'm not a boulderer so I shy away from speculating on how much is there and how much a guide will attract new climbers to the area. If there is a magnitude of quality problems, and given the relatively short approach, then yes, a comprehensive guide will probably attract more boulderers; especially if there are tons of FA opportunities. Whether this is good or bad, I don't know. I think one of the thing that attracts people to Moore's is the same thing that attracted me. There are easy and moderate routes perfect for aspiring leaders of gear routes. An easy to follow comprehensive guide that does most of the work for you as far as finding routes will probably attract more people. I think the real issue that a guidebook could create is two-tiered. First, because of the wealth of routes around the 5.5-5.7 range, and because a detailed book will make these routes easy to find, you're going to have more inexperienced trad leaders show up. More people dicking with gear that haven't put time in will invariably lead to a few injuries. How many more? Time will tell. Also, with the addition of more people, you most certainly will have ones that won't adhere to time honored ethics that Moore's and NC locals do. This is especially true concerning the limited descent options. If the number of people at Moore's drastically increases, I'd be willing to bet that at least one person tries to install a top anchor on at least one route. That is one too many. The whole argument has been hashed and rehashed by both proponents and opponents. The park (which is really the state) and the locals have been more than clear on more than one occasion. No new bolts. No new fixed gear- including top anchors. I wouldn't go as far as to say that this scenario is likely, but I think it is entirely possible. However, being a climber that respects local ethics and thoroughly researches an area before going the first time, I am in favor of a guidebook. I'm not a NC or Moore's local, but I do know the history, the names of those who put up a lot of the routes, and I adhere to the tradition; just as I would at any other crag. For me, a guidebook in similar fashion to the RRG and NRG books would help me find the routes I want to get on and help me maximize my time on the rock. This is important to me because I have so little time and opportunity to drive a few hours, stay for a few days and get good quality climbing time in. Perhaps that's a little selfish of me. Sorry. I actually met Erica at Stone Mtn over Thanksgiving. Her and her hubby seem like good people and they climb hard. I'm confident that they have considered all the aforementioned issues and probably a host of others that haven't even been mentioned. Bottom line is that the guidebook sounds as if it's going to be written, published and distributed no matter what any of us have to say. It's up to us as climbers (both local and non) to do the best we can to get along, help each other, and try (although I know some people are just going to be assholes) to keep people in line when we see them littering, being unsafe, altering rock, installing anchors- whatever the case may be. I'm willing to do that and help in any other way that I can. I love Moore's.

There are two separate guides being written by two separate authors. One bouldering and one ropes. It seems like the bouldering guide has a lot more support from the original developers but that's just a guess really since I am not a member of Erica's Facebook page for her new book.

I have met Erica once and have no reason to believe that she is incompetent of evaluating all of the issues or of putting together a high quality book. She was nice enough to me - I've got no problems with her.

For me this is about the fact that there just isn't a need for another book. As others have said, it's not just Moore's that is already well documented. The other areas that will be included in the new book are also well documented. With no disrespect intended, I find myself questioning the underlying motivations for writing one.

Like you said, the book is coming out no matter what any of us say. People have the freedom to do what they please and I think that's a good freedom to have. I'm happy that this will cause you to come to Moore's more often because, as I've already said, you seem to understand the real reason that it is so special.

But I think it's important to have discussions such as these and I'm proud to be from a part of the country that can have this sort of discussion w/o it turning into some shit show where everyone threatens each other and sends hostile secret emails back and forth.

While I have not climbed at Moore's wall in some time now, I spent many weekends during my highschool years making the drive out from Charlotte to some of the most bold, traditional, and storied climbing in the state. Along with crowders and the Bald it is one of the places where I was taught to climb outside on real rock, and as a result some of my best early memories of climbing are of pulling on the steep, massive horizontals of sentinel buttress and the amphitheater, and then subsequently experiencing the adventure of having to get down. I was lucky enough to have been shown the ins and outs of surviving Moore's Wall by two of the state's crustiest lifers, Buddy Brasington and Les Duncan. Their local knowledge and the supplemental topos of Harrison Schull are what allowed me to have such great and safe experiences time and time again at this special place. While I understand that not everyone is able to receive such a personal rundown of a crag like I did, I think that a big problem with todays mountainproject, picture guidebook generation is the lack of a necessity to make a personal connection with the place you are climbing at. These modern conveniences tend to serve as a crutch for a user who just expects to show up at a crag and not have to figure out any of the good stuff for themselves. One thing I love about climbing in NC is that after having spent time out west I can still come back here and experience a place like Moore's, 30 minutes from Winston, and not have to look at a wall that is grid bolted, chalked out, and mobbed with people.

Personally I don't like the Idea of a full colored guide book for Moore's Wall as I think it detracts from the adventurous spirit of North Carolina climbing that I have come to love. I am not trying to bring a locals only, north shore style, vibe to the tar heel state, I just think that the precedent and tradition practiced and set by the people that put in the blood and time to develop Moore's wall should be respected. I also fear that a modern guide book will make Moore's appear to be a dangerous and scary "trad" crag where pushing your personal limits is not advised, which with the proper experience is not the case. I have seen this happen with areas like Eldorado Canyon and in pretty much any SuperTopo guide book I've ever looked at. I do think that climbing should be available for anyone out there who wants to enjoy it, but what scares me is the current trend of the modern climbing community to dilute, commercialize, and destroy what little adventure we have left.

That last comment leads me into a response of "saxfiends" concern of the fixed anchors found at most of the rappel stations around the crag. While at first trusting your life to nuts and chocks swedged together may seem a little disconcerting, these anchors are maintained, in good condition, and I have witnessed a 200+ pound behemeth of a hard man use these anchors time and time again. If you had set the anchor there yourself, as I'm sure you have hung off an all natural anchor before, I believe the doubt in your mind regarding the quality of the anchor would significantly decrease. Saying this I think you should trust the judgement of Mr. Tim Fischer and the quality of his fixed anchors given the amount of time he has invested at Moore's and the experience under his belt. At a time when the cars of climbers were being broken into by backwater locals, Fischer purchased property in that little community before you get to the modern trailhead so that his friends and fellow climbers would have a place to park their car and camp without being threatened with a smashed window or a shotgun in their face. Moore's is Tim's baby. I believe adding convenience anchors would be a slap in the face to guys like Tim, Porter Jarrard, Tom McMillan, and Bob Rotert who trusted their own abilities rather than manufacturing a crag to be convenient, accessible, and worry free to a mass traffic audience. I do not like how the prospect of a modern guide book has opened the discussion of rap bolts, as I can see the discussion of retro bolting for "safety" purposes coming in the not so distant future. The judgement and style of crag developers and first ascensionists should not be open for interpretation, I have never heard of any of the Moore's Wall rap stations failing while being used by a climber. Pilot mountain is a short drive away if one is looking for a "safe" day out.

On a final note, I would also like to know the qualifications that E-Line has for authoring a guidebook that includes Moore's Wall. I believe a guidebook author should hold it to themselves to experience all of the routes, or at least almost all of them, in the given area they are writing about as second hand information can be easily misconstrued and there are a lot of pitches at Moore's that don't get climbed that often. If Moore's Wall is getting a full color showcase it at least deserves accurate and truthful route descriptions. Personally I think if anyone is writing the Moore's section it should be Tim Fischer seeing as how he nows that area better than anybody alive or dead, and I'm pretty sure his clocks still ticking, it would be hard for mother nature to kill that man. Although, if approached with the prospect of doing a Piedmont area guide book, I'm sure he would just laugh. A full color guide book in conjunction with convenience anchors would draw in traffic that the Moore's landscape could not handle and accommodate and with give a new meaning to "Zoo view." I can already see the train of boy scouts leaving washboard to go top rope golden earring, the wailing wall, and zoo view, yikes.

good luck

Corey Flynn wrote:These modern conveniences tend to serve as a crutch for a user who just expects to show up at a crag and not have to figure out any of the good stuff for themselves.

But you didn't figure it out for yourself, did you? You were shown around by locals. How is that any more adventurous than a guidebook?

Corey Flynn wrote:If you had set the anchor there yourself, as I'm sure you have hung off an all natural anchor before, I believe the doubt in your mind regarding the quality of the anchor would significantly decrease.

You misconstrued my comment on the fixed anchors. I have no doubts about the quality or reliability of these anchors; my point was that fixed gear isn't any more authentic or aesthetic than bolts, and it's certainly not "all natural." I wonder why nobody ever whines about the bolts and anchors on routes like Wild Kingdom? (by the way, it's Tim Fisher, not Fischer, and he's truly one of NC's climbing heroes.)

Corey Flynn wrote:I do not like how the prospect of a modern guide book has opened the discussion of rap bolts, as I can see the discussion of retro bolting for "safety" purposes coming in the not so distant future.

I'm not aware that anyone in this discussion has advocated adding new rap stations or retrobolting; certainly, I didn't. As I said above, I don't have any problems with the fixed-gear anchors on routes like Golden Earring or Wailing Wall, I just think it's silly to pretend that they're more hardcore or authentic. One of the benefits of a new guidebook for Moore's will be to point people to existing rap stations so they won't be inclined to try and create new ones.

Corey Flynn wrote:I can already see the train of boy scouts leaving washboard to go top rope golden earring, the wailing wall, and zoo view, yikes.

If you can see that, you need new glasses! None of the three routes you cite could be toproped even with a 70-meter rope, and even if they could, you'd have to lead them first.

JL

^ Erica, Steve,

how about including a "I love Moore's" sticker in the guidebook?!

Watching someone's face who hasn't rapped off fixed gear see the rap anchors (which are bomber) for the amphitheater or wailing wall for the first time is priceless. "Wait, what?"

This is largely unrelated to the current discussion but there often isn't a good discussion on MP about Moore's (or most NC climbing).