Is A6+ even possible?

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:PS, as per the ripping the belay, i thought that was what Bridwell suggested with t he A5+ rating.

According to the interview in Desnivel, with the "+" he is referring to a higher technical level, not lesser safety... so he is calling it an "A6+" because he thought it was TECHNICALLY harder to climb than the previous A6 he did (which actually is now called A4+/A5)... The problem is that, in principle, the 'A' grading considers only how bad a potential mess up will be, but some climbers find this insufficient, and feel that the technical difficulty should also be included. Alas, there is no upper limit to how hard a climb can be but there is a clear upper limit to how bad it can get if you fuck up: you die, end of the story...
This is an interesting point and is somewhat inverse to what happens in traditional free climbing, where usually only the technical difficulty is accounted for (except for the english 'E' grading). And yes, before someone ask 'how hard can it be to pull on gear?', I will have to say, is not the actual pulling on the gear. It can be really hard to do the placements, assuming good style of course... doing a really hard (technical) aid climb takes not only balls but lots of imagination, strategy, creativity, strength and mental and physical stamina... just like what you need to for a free on-sight. How do we decide something is 'harder'... ahhh, yes... there are no scientifically well defined objective references for sport climbing or bouldering neither, but they work just fine.

My question is, do we need to create a new rating system? or maybe to expand the existent one? or just talk about how dead you will be? can you be more dead than dead? say dead-dead? maybe dead and scared? dead and surprised? dead and tired?

i don't seem to get along here well , but i think the 6+ is pushing it a bit. seems like that would bracket back the other grades seeing that A5+ is potential ground fall material. i've never climbed hard aid routes, so i'll shut up now.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:Nice, Jared. Even better insight than your post of last night.

Yeah, I think it's Jed actually, but I wasn't too worried about getting an anonymous avatar right. Anyway, I wanted to shout out a for a post he wasn't blowing snot on people!

Shawn Mitchell wrote:Yeah, I think it's Jed actually, but I wasn't too worried about getting an anonymous avatar right. Anyway, I wanted to shout out a for a post he wasn't blowing snot on people!

Nice JLP thanks for taking the time to explain it all so well , Your point was exactly what I knew all along ( in regards to number of sketchy placements ect )but was wondering if in the last 20 years id missed something somewhere between work n play?As I dont climb sandstone that much...

A-6 is a Euro grade of an A-5 pitch if you can find an A-5 pitch on
shi@@y sandstone

cool .....

It's all sooo clear now

Thanks Again .
Rog..

this whole mess is a play on Beyer's own unique aid scale.

Not the old scale, not the new wave...his OWN.

Back when Beyer was the only one climbing his stuff he could call it A6, A5b, A4d. Whatever he wanted, noone was repeating his stuff, he could tell tall tales all day.

Homey, the hardman Euro is just playing off of the Beyer's scale. For a period of years I was pretty in touch with Beyer's grading. Kalous's aid rant (He did second ascent? of Death of American democracy and soloed second of World's End, both Beyer's, both in Fishers)is spot on. Everyone tells teh same story of contrived placements/difficulty, voodoo topos, and a heavy drill.

Ok thanks Brent

I understand it and that aid rant guy is f*##**n funny.........

Wow - sixty posts on aid ratings? Don't you guys have anything more interesting to talk about?

Aid ratings just aren't one of these things you can quantify very well. One man's A4 is another man's A2. If you have the skill and experience and equipment, you can turn a hard A4 pitch into a reasonable exercise. If not, it can become a living nightmare. Examples on how to mitigate risk would include knowing how to replace crappy fixed or dead heads with your own new good ones, and knowing how to use hooks for pro that will actually stop you if you blow it. A huge rack of Screamers and Scream Aids will make a big difference, too.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but you guys oughta go out and give some of these aid pitches a try. It's actually a lot of fun, and not too scary once you get the hang of it. Plus it's the only way you can reach the bitchin'est campsites.

As for Mr. Beyer, although I have never met him, I am more than a little pissed at his destruction of Wall of Early Morning Light on El Cap. When he climbed Martyr's Brigade, he destroyed a bunch of anchors and bolts on WOEML, which have yet to be fixed. The line is currently unclimbable.

You guys ought to read Richard Jensen's account of his and Mark Smith's second ascent of Beyer's Intifada, touted as "the hardest aid route on the planet". Here are some exerpts:

"I realized that, on the first pitch at least, Beyer had bypassed natural hook placements, and had used the drill instead to trench heads which weren't needed. We rated the pitch A4. Had he hooked everything that was available, instead of trenching, Beyer would have had an A5 ground-fall pitch. Instead, Beyer appeared to have 'brought the pitch down to his level'."

They found no A6 Death Anchors, and in fact the climbing wasn't even that hard. Have a read - good stuff!

jensenconsultations.com/cli…

I just got off a new route in Zion. We did stacks of hard aid. Aid is dead. Not cool. Mostly a sport for dorks like me who can't free climb moonlight.
We talked about this topic up there as we are tasked with rating a bunch of difficult sandstone nailing. Ryan AKA "YO" said:
" The aid scale is kind of lame because it's overkill. It's either A1, A2+, or A4 because the scale is topped out at A5 and you are a blowhard if you use the 5." In our little world, the 4 means you will likely get hurt, or hurt bad if you blow it.

A6 or A6+ = BLOWHARD.

Unlike the open-ended free scales, the aid scale should not be opened up. You don't have to be Sharma or Yuji to do an A5, just a little nuts and very lucky, or unlucky to have actually found an A5 pitch. I've fallen on beaks, heads, and shitty old sticking out Bridwell rivets and had them all hold.

Show me an A5 pitch. I'll wager that none have yet been found in Zion. That is saying a lot for the hundreds of aid routes that have been done there. I'll bet only 1 or 2 have actually claimed A5 pitches. Flying Bryan, Burt and Ammon have done some crazy aid climbing there (stigmata, the arch on red arch...) I've not seen any A5 on their topos...

A6 (no anchor)--WHY? BLOWHARDS. These folks should be embarrased for thier blatant hot air.

Pete,
Thank you for that link. I have been fascinated with hard Fisher Tower aid lines (not that I will ever actually try one,) and have always found Beyer intriguing. I think that his original "no holes deeper than 1/4 inch on the FA" is officially bunk.
Two things to Beyer's credit though:
1. Beyer had his own aid rating scale (see Desert Rock 4)so if he wants to call it A6, than it was Beyer A6.
2. Having spent a bit of time in the desert alone I can attest that your perceptions tend to get a bit warped.

My definition of A6- If you fall you and your partner die, along with everyone else who happens to be on the route. Your life insurance will also be revoked, and your bereaved will be audited by the IRS.

ARRose wrote: "No, the plus is for killing another party"
Splendid!

rick d wrote: "there is no A6
Correct you are sir!

Perhaps A5+ is aiding without a rope?

There is something to be said for tradition and our sport has tradition steeped in folklore, honored by legend and perpetuated by drunken campfire rantings.

Let's not alter tradition to satisfy the egos of some new kids on the block.

I was under the impression that A6 was really just A5 where you failed, got resurrected ( after making your saving throw vs -1 Constitution....) and on your second attempt bit it again. Unfortunately at this point you have either run out of gold or the local cleric is pissed when he learns you are Chaotic Neutral and there is no third chance for you....

brooks8970 wrote:Perhaps this is the most difficult aid climb ever, but it is not A6+. Why? There is no A6+. The system is capped because it is based on the the number of continuous body weight placements. Since most believe that there has never been an actual A6 climb, it doesnt make any sense to skip a grade. Props to these guys for putting up what looks to be a very hard route in the fishers, but IMO their claim takes away slightly from what should be a celebrated accomplishment.

Darren in Vegas wrote:Assuming this route is in the valley.... A5 - the leader dies in a fall A6 - the leader and belayer die in a fall A7 - Everyone watching in El Cap meadow dies (idea stolen from AG)

dear ancient archives thread, this song goes out to you.

youtube.com/watch?v=Ob1CdTL…