Stickclipping a redpoint attempt

Andrew Haag wrote: I believe that what you do doesnt matter, it's how you do it that makes a difference.

In seven full pages of discussion, nary a person has agreed with anything that you've said--and you've said a lot. You might want to take a step back and consider that before continuing to spout off.

Just a thought.

I already brought up "EZ" points that show what a moron you are. For example...

Fall anywhere past the typically high first bolt on a sport climb in the Red River Gorge and you fall into air. Fall before the first bolt and fall into boulders and break your ankles. Why would you not stick clip here?

It doesn't matter if you are 100% confident getting to the first bolt, rocks break. Anywhere else on the route and you fall into air and nothing happens, why would I want to risk breaking my legs on the first 5% of the route? Makes no sense!

Marc H wrote: In seven full pages of discussion, nary a person has agreed anything that you've said--and you've said a lot. You might want to take a step back and consider that before continuing to spout off. Just a thought.

agreed... thanks.

Andrew Haag wrote: Some of the hardest climbs out there to date are deep water solos. PS: The average climber is in the 5.10 range, not the 5.13 range.

The valid point is obvious to the real climbers discussing this point Andrew, just not to you.

Most real climbers don't really consider 5.10 climbers to be real climbers at all. They are beginners. They might become real climbers someday through hard work, dedication, and tons of pain, but in the meantime they are just learning the sport. You have no background to talk about anything other than easy beginner climbs because that is all you know. Pontificating about something you know nothing about is just plain idiotic.

Andrew Haag wrote: I agree with you, however climbing harder grades doesnt mean that we have moved foward as a climbing community. Climbing harder is a personall achievment and does nothing for the community or the rock. Using stick clips promotes lazyness and it inhibits the process of moving foward to protect the rock. Our ultamite goal as a climber is to protect the rock from huge devolpment so that we, and future generations can enjoy what mother nature has provided for us.

How exactly does not using a stick clip "protect the rock from huge devolpment so that we, and future generations can enjoy what mother nature has provided for [sic]"? Whether you choose to use a stick clip or not has no influence on "moving foward to protect the rock [sic]" whatever that means. The bolts are already there, I am just choosing to clip them sooner than you are. If you want to keep crowds down, then perhaps the bolts shouldn't be there in the first place, but that is an entirely different argument.

Andrew Haag wrote: ... Why does climbing a harder grade give you an excuse to set a lower standard?...

This is what you're not getting. It's not a lower standard to many climbers. Mediocre climbing is a lower standard to many climbers. And I don't mean that in a "you're weak and can't climb hard" way. I mean that in a "you're not living up to your potential as a climber" kind of way. A stickclip is just another tool for people to realize their potential as a climber, especially those who value pushing their own difficulty limits over pushing their mental limits.

johnL wrote:Entirely engorged!!

I wasn't before, but if you keep saying that...

This post violated Rule #1. It has been removed by Mountain Project.

Andrew Haag wrote: You are taking what I said, and changing the context to work for you. I never said that not using a stick clip protects the rock. I simply stated that using a stick clip inhibits the ability of the sport to evolve. In order for the sport to evolve we must find methods that are non harmfull to the rock. Do all of you really think that bolt protected routes is going to be the norm forever?

Really? Because you said this:

Andrew Haag wrote:Using stick clips promotes lazyness and it inhibits the process of moving foward to protect the rock

If an action (stick clipping) inhibits the protection of the rock, then it stands to reason that not taking that action (not stick clipping) would allow it. But then again, it really is hard to tell exactly what you meant with the way it was written.

Stick clip or not, the route is still bolted. Prominent use of stickclips might change the location of the bolts, but it does/will not affect whether or not the route was bolted in the first place. If sticks did not exist, then perhaps route developers would just place more bolts down low on routes?

Andrew Haag wrote: So I should just chime in when people agree with me... Thats weak..

That's not what I said. What I'm saying is that if everyone around you is telling you that you're wrong, you might be wrong. Just something to consider.

Of course you might be the only sane one in this thread, but I think we both know how likely that is. Well, at least I do..

--Marc

csproul wrote: This is what you're not getting. It's not a lower standard to many climbers. Mediocre climbing is a lower standard to many climbers. And I don't mean that in a "you're weak and can't climb hard" way. I mean that in a "you're not living up to your potential as a climber" kind of way. A stickclip is just another tool for people to realize their potential as a climber, especially those who value pushing their own difficulty limits over pushing their mental limits.

+1

Andrew Haag wrote: Im sure there is a name for whats wrong with me, However I dont know what its called.

Bipolar.

Andrew Haag wrote: So I should just chime in when people agree with me... Thats weak.

Sorry, Andrew, no real climber will ever agree with you. Only the odd chuffing fools who are thinking of excuses about why they suck at at climbing. Trust me, you not using a stick clip is not the reason why you climb beginner routes. It is because you are weak and inexperienced. That is not a personal attack. It is an explanation why you appear to be so idiotic in this conversation.

Wow! You guys are really falling for the whole hook, line, and sinker! Good shit.

I guess I was a beginner for like 19 years, and still am... plenty of scary hard 5.10's out there that rarely get climbed, even by 'good' climbers.

And there is nothing wrong with that except when you try and tell people who are actually proficient at sport climbing how things are.

Sure there are scary 5.10's but they are not sport climbs and that is what we are talking about. Remember, sport climbing starts at 5.12. That is absolutly true.

Sorry if this info hurts your feelings but its true. If you show up at a sport climbing venue you would be climbing the beginning routes, hence, you are a beginner. Calling everyone better than you a pussy is just funny.

Tevis Blom wrote: a stick clip pussifies your ascent, no matter how you argue it.

I agree stick clipping pussifies climbing, but, sport climbing in general is a pussification of climbing. That is the point of sport climbing (practice climbing). Trying to be bold while sport climbing is an oxymoron. It is kind of like driving without a seatbelt, sure I could do that, but to add unecessary risk isn't sensible.

However, I have also climbed many scary hard routes that you haven't thanks to my pussified practice.

By the way, don't you use a stick with some bait clipped to it for fishing? I would argue your fishing stick clip is pussifying your catch, it really should only count if you use bare hands, or better yet, your teeth.

Heh. Talk about eating up the bait. Looks like Johnny struck a nerve with the 5.12 comment.

JohnWesely wrote: They are not different enough to warrant distinction. The fact that you don't understand that shows you don't have enough experience to be having this discussion.

OK Mr. Hardened General of the climbing community. Since you've gained such a vast wealth of knowledge and experience in your 21 years, answer me this.

If going to the top of a route and setting up a top rope is different enough to warrant distinction, but setting up a top rope from the ground for the the first 20% of the route isn't, how do we determine where exactly the critical threshold of difference is with any objectivity?

How about this. From now on, on a trad route when anyone gets to a part that they think is hard and/or dangerous they are allowed to aid 15% to 25% of the route, and so long as it makes that person feel happy and safe inside they can still call it a free ascent. And, in no way shape or form is anyone to consider this a lowering of standards in the sport.

Wow, for a whole bunch of people who supposedly don't give a shit about what other people think, there sure is a lot of giving a shit about what other people think going on here.

speaking of bait, when's the last time the OP chimed into the discussion?

M LaViolette Jr. wrote: OK Mr. Hardened General of the climbing community. Since you've gained such a vast wealth of knowledge and experience in your 21 years, answer me this. If going to the top of a route and setting up a top rope is different enough to warrant distinction, but setting up a top rope from the ground for the the first 20% of the route isn't, how do we determine where exactly the critical threshold of difference is with any objectivity? How about this. From now on, on a trad route when anyone gets to a part that they think is hard and/or dangerous they are allowed to aid 15% to 25% of the route, and so long as it makes that person feel happy and safe inside they can still call it a free ascent. And, in no way shape or form is anyone to consider this a lowering of standards in the sport. Wow, for a whole bunch of people who supposedly don't give a shit about what other people think, there sure is a lot of giving a shit about what other people think going on here.

I am going to make myself very clear. You have no idea what you are talking about. The whole purpose of sport climbing is to remove the danger element. Repeat that a few times aloud, preferably in front of mirror. If you want to pretend that is not the case and forgo using a stickclip so you can brag to your friends about how pure and hardcore you are on a clip up, be my guest. Now to answer your question, stick clipping the first bolt removes a significant amount of danger from the climb. Top roping is top roping. As to your trad comment, of course it would be lame to aid the crux of a route and call it a free ascent, but that is complete non sequitar.

For what its worth, I rarely use a stick clip.