Do V grades have a route grade equivalent?

ya.. i've always gone by .12a/b - V4/5 especially at *aheM* Rumney where the climbing is generally short and bouldery

it makes RRG and NRG enduro climbers cry real tearz

Bouldering and route climbing are different sports. You may do both. You may use similar equipment at both. You may be good at one and suck at the other - or you may be good at both. What makes you good at one may not be of much use in the other. Silly to use the same scale. Would a football quarterback have a good game if he had 10 strikeouts? Would a baseball pitcher have a good game if he had 4 TD passes? A lot of people play both. They involve balls, are played on fields in stadiums.

bouldering and route climbing are so different that by this point it is pretty useless to compare the two. Going beyond that, even most high end boulder problems rarely come down to one v16 move; almost all have some degree of endurance factored in.

The only thing I think you can accurately say is that, as far as something like v4=12a, or v7=13a (which is the most common translation that I've seen), it is not so much that if you can boulder v4 you can do a 12a. Rather, no 12a anywhere will likely have a move harder than v4, BUT, there are plenty of solid 12a's without anything even close a v4 move.

They're different. Having said that, I recall that one of my bouldering books put V0 at ~10+ and I think that's pretty fair (can't remember which book -- either Horan or Benningfield). That wiki chart is poop.

camhead wrote: there are plenty of solid 12a's without anything even close a v4 move.

What's a V4 move? I hate to quibble, but it would be better to say "V4 sequence". Most V4s have several moves, and as you say, some amount of endurance is factored in. This is the problem with these types of comparisons. Nobody knows what a V4 move is, because every V4 is made up of a bunch of V2 moves, and nobody knows what a V2 move is because...

Trad Ninja wrote:Do V grades have a route equivalent? This drove me crazy at the gym, there was this chart that someone produced showing all the grading systems and how they compared but among that was V grade vs YDS, thus V3=5.12 (or whatever, I can't remember exactly what it said) which I contend is bullshit, they don't correlate. So, people would come up to me saying "Well, this move is V3 so how can the route be 5.11?". My answer being "Well, boulder problem ratings are different from route ratings." Finally, I had to tear that piece of paper down because it was causing so much trouble. Whaddya think?

Keep climbing, perhaps outside of your isolated gym environment and outside of your isolated Wisconsin climbing scene and eventually you will understand these systems. They are not perfect. They are generally agreed upon concepts that change from time to time and place to place. They are uniform yet personal. They are ........... CHAOS. They were designed to upset people with week temperaments, low self confidence, and no experience. They oftentimes succeed.

I think this blog post mentioned in the linked thread by Rajiv Ayyanger sums things up perfectly: peripheralscrutiny.blogspot…

I equate one move (or one sequence) climbs as the hardest moves in V grade on the climb often equal the YDS difficulty. This can be true for climbs with hard sections broken up by great rests as well. Here the V4 = 12a, V7 = 13a, V11 = 14a often works out pretty accuratly. I spend too much time climbing one move wonders, but I live in NM....

I also think it can be a useful tool for identifying weaknesses. If you are proficient (and split time fairly evenly) at both Sport climbing and bouldering then it is easy to see if you are weak in power or endurance. Meaning that if you can boulder V7 then you should be able to redpoint 13a. If you can redpoint 13c but can only boulder V5, then improving your bouldering grade will help you progress to the next level in sport climbing.

Finally as a source of something to debate with friends I made up the comparative chart for NM that Rajiv did for hard climbs around the world. All grades and aspects of V grade or Endurance is my best guess.

Johny Q wrote: Keep climbing, perhaps outside of your isolated gym environment and outside of your isolated Wisconsin climbing scene and eventually you will understand these systems. They are not perfect. They are generally agreed upon concepts that change from time to time and place to place. They are uniform yet personal. They are ........... CHAOS. They were designed to upset people with week temperaments, low self confidence, and no experience. They oftentimes succeed.

LOL! Lame attempt to offend me Johnny Q, hopefully you climb better than you insult. I expect better next time.

Can you tell us why a boudering grade does or does not correlate with a route grade?

d e wrote:Cue Kid Icarus...

I've given up my grade hatchet. Grade obsessed retards be grade obsessed retards. They're all here!

Trad Ninja wrote: LOL! Lame attempt to offend me Johnny Q, hopefully you climb better than you insult. I expect better next time. Can you tell us why a boudering grade does or does not correlate with a route grade?

Because they are human systems and humans are anything other than perfect? Duh. Just look around at some of the people on this site. Don't worry, when I was a youngster I used to lament on the same sort of crap. Now I know a crap when I see one and I don't touch it, I don't eat it, and I don't take the time to complain about it to strangers.

I found this handy tool on the internet which would help you out. Now it takes a little self reliance to use, which can be tricky, but try it out and let me know what you think.

here it is

Monomaniac wrote: What's a V4 move? I hate to quibble, but it would be better to say "V4 sequence". Most V4s have several moves, and as you say, some amount of endurance is factored in. This is the problem with these types of comparisons. Nobody knows what a V4 move is, because every V4 is made up of a bunch of V2 moves, and nobody knows what a V2 move is because...

i've done a few routes that had single moves that could be described (in my mind at least) by a V grade. shelf has few of these routes - the top of aoxoamoxoa, the crux on working man (i think that's the route, one sort of low percentage move), etc. or a single long move to a jug could fit the bill.

in general you're right though.

Johny Q wrote: Because they are human systems and humans are anything other than perfect? Duh. Just look around at some of the people on this site. Don't worry, when I was a youngster I used to lament on the same sort of crap. Now I know a crap when I see one and I don't touch it, I don't eat it, and I don't take the time to complain about it to strangers.

And yet here you are complaining to strangers. You can't help yourself but to try and derail anything you can on the internet, so sad. I'm proud to be the object of your obsession.

This isn't about the subjectivity of ratings, that has been established. The point is that the grading systems of one aspect of the sport does not translate to another aspect of the sport. However some people insist on doing so and only further complicating the issue in their own minds. Any grading chart comparing V-grades to route grades should be abolished and the author shot, no trial, straight to execution.

Glad to see you join the party David, you're my favorite to work into a frenzy.

Sadly, you are missing the point again. While it's perfectly legitimate to say a route contains a V5 boulder problem or that a route requires V5 ability, the grade of V5 has no correlation to the YDS grade of that route. The "V5" is simply a description of part of the route. Due to that V5 within the route the YDS could probably vary from 5.12 on up depending on the circumstances surrounding the V5.

Trad Ninja wrote:Glad to see you join the party David, you're my favorite to work into a frenzy. Sadly, you are missing the point again. While it's perfectly legitimate to say a route contains a V5 boulder problem or that a route requires V5 ability, the grade of V5 has no correlation to the YDS grade of that route. The "V5" is simply a description of part of the route. Due to that V5 within the route the YDS could probably vary from 5.12 on up depending on the circumstances surrounding the V5.

So there's no correlation that can be made really, therefore you, your poster and this thread are pointless and unneeded?

Let's sum this puppy up:

Routes aren't boulder problems (except in Rumney).

Routes and boulders are similar enough though that great boulderers make the best sportos. They'll probably refer to routes in bouldering terms, pissing off bored gym managers.

Kid Icarus quits.

David Sahalie disagrees with... whatever.

Seinfeld-esque: A thread about... nothing.

Trad Ninja wrote: And yet here you are complaining to strangers. .

I sometimes wonder if you have trouble reading. What exactly am I complaining about? I am pretty sure that was you complaining and me ribbing you for it. I have no qualms because I do understand the chaos that are grades and I put less and less importance the more I understand them. I have climbed hard 12's and easy 13's. It's just how it is, chaos, and I am not complaining about it but telling it like it is. You did ask the question, after all.

If the scales were easy to compare i don't think we ever would have adopted the second one...

on a related note, i do find it helpful to describe routes in sections using the bouldering grades such as... "low angle 5.8 start leading to a burly V6 crux, shake out at a jug. then a technical v4 to sustained 5.10 to the anchor..." it helps paint a more clear picture of the route...

Johny Q wrote: I sometimes wonder if you have trouble reading. What exactly am I complaining about? I am pretty sure that was you complaining and me ribbing you for it. I have no qualms because I do understand the chaos that are grades and I put less and less importance the more I understand them. I have climbed hard 12's and easy 13's. It's just how it is, chaos, and I am not complaining about it but telling it like it is. You did ask the question, after all.

You're complaining about complaining JQ. Just keep typing ;)

Lee, agreed. to specify your thought further if I did a 6 pitch route and there was a V4 mixed into 5.8 terrain I would't call it 5.11 (or whatever V4 supposedly equals) I would call it "5.8 with a V4 boulder problem".

A JQ and I agree some people take the grading systems much too rigidly. At the gym I would solve the problem by immediately walking over and changing the grade to whatever ever they would like it to be. Most of the time they got the message.

Check out this chart posted by Rock and Ice Magazine:

boulder vs yds scale

Chart at the bottom. Sounds reasonable to me, but I don't boulder much...

Cheers,
Nelson