Can someone please explain this to me??

I've just spent the last hour in a grueling effort to try, even a little bit, to care. And I have to be completely honest...

I just don't.

k. riemondy wrote: For me, I drytool in places like Ouray or Vail, to gain experience and confidence for mixed (ice and rock) routes in committing environments (i.e. RMNP in winter). It is a form of aid, but for me, it is a type of aid that is more physically engaging than dangling in aiders. I do both for different reasons. Try it sometime if you want to understand it. Drytooling definitely scars the rock, but it is worth noting that most drytooling crags are in places with chossy, dirty, and unattractive rock. The chossy nature of the rock produces many seams, cracks, and features that are amendable to crampons and tools. You could probably free climb in these places, but it rarely occurs, because the rock isn't generally enticing to people looking to put up new areas. I would think that there is enough rock around to allow people to practice sport, trad, aid, drytooling, or whatever, without overly limiting each user group's experience.

I don't have any problem w/ dry-tooling... I just don't know that much about it. I imagine that I would like it.

But yea, this is what I was wondering. If it was just people making use of rock that would probably not be worth the effort otherwise. Sounds like that is usually the case.

What ever happened to leave no trace? Can someone please explain to me how dry-tooling follows this very simple guideline??
Please, I'm baffled.

And while it breaks my heart to see chalk I've left on a hold while climbing. In no way is that chalk a permanent reminder of my ascent. Remember when clean aid came into practice? Perhaps that's something we could relate this conversation to?

it's a secret

Well at least they did it in some obscure cave and not on something like the Hallucinogen Wall.

@Jeffeos - Leave no trace? Thats funny. I'd say 80% of climbers could care less about the leave no trace ehtic. Look at any popular sport area. The place is covered with chalk, full of bolts, every start is packed out and void of vegitation and there are probably fixed or "project" draws all over the place.

Maybe it should be called sport aiding? Looks like fun but this is the type of thing that climbers used to do on bad weather days when they were bored. I love how it, like bouldering, has turned into a "sport" in it's own right. Just plain silly.

Every time the Proj shows its whiny ass inner child, you just want to smack the shit out of a baby panda bear.

So... sport aid climbing?

Edit: Darn, yarp beat me to it.

Those boys down there are some strong ass climbers, be it on rock and ice and whatever else. I'm sure if they're not climbing it with just hands and feet, there's a legit reason.

but I'm just speculating...

Will it go free at some point probably: is it burly as dry tooling yes . Is it bad ass yes. Will it be more baf ass when it goes free yes. But in 1950 it was bad ass to aid up the nose. Yes. Notice the trend
Climbing is bad ass,

Not every piece of rock needs to be climbed, nor does it need to be developed to make the median person happy.

Dry tooling is a semi obscure, but very fun actIvity in its own right. It is basically only done in areas designated to be dry tooling areas. The people who developed this area believed that it would be a better dry tooling crag than a rock one. They are probably right. Who are you to say differently?

All modern rock climbing is just practice for mountaineering. This new form of practice seems silly at first but no doubt has some merit. If the goal of these routes is to have a training ground for longer mixed climbs I can see it. Calling it a new sport not so much.

At least there is some ice in the pics so at least one could say that it's too cold to climb comfortably bare handed. Maybe the big ice climbs just aren't in shape yet and these guys want to start tuning up.

Obviously climbing is not a leave no trace dominated user group. I recall an article from the 80's where climbers were pouring oil down aid cracks so they couldn't be freed. Local climbers didn't want to give up a place to practice old school aid. If you want to go to the Valley and nail something big it helps to get some prep time in.

The first time I saw anything on drytooling as a new aspect of climbing I thought it was the stupidest thing yet. But I can see how it would be handy to have a place close to home to get a work out in this way. As long as they still get out and do those long mixed routes they claim to be training for we can't really call them posers now can we.

Tim McCabe wrote:All modern rock climbing is just practice for mountaineering.

This is an astoundingly closed minded and archaic view of climbing.

Now if these guys end up doing these routes in the middle of summer when they could be out climbing in rock shoes, then you can consider them officially daft.

Stich wrote:Now if these guys end up doing these routes in the middle of summer when they could be out climbing in rock shoes, then you can consider them officially daft.

from the R&I story
(edit to clarify: photo is from the blog that the R&I story linked to and credited for the story)
Well...

Anyways, I suppose all the different styles of climbing are contrived in one form another, each with a different set of "rules" that everyone plays by. If climbing sport lines in rock shoes and ice tools makes you happy, well, so be it. There is probably a legitimate discussion to be had about damaging the wall with the tools, but then again, the same arguments can be made for chalk and bolts. Its funny to me how the climbing media has decided that this particular contrivance is news-worthy, but I suppose they think it will get page clicks.

Now, if only it would get cold here in the northeast I'd be able to stop bitching on the interwebs.

The rock in that picture looks waaaay climbable w/out fucking picking it to pieces. I always thought these guys were relegated to shale caves.

There is lots of rock out there. If a few guys want to bolt up a crag that none of the area route developers have got to yet where's the harm. One cliff among the thousands becoming a dry tooling area is no big deal.
Anyone bitching about the leave no trace ethic better not use chalk, clips bolts or ski.

Scott O wrote:sport aid climbing?

lets just call a spaid a spaid.

Jimbo wrote:Anyone bitching about the leave no trace ethic better not use chalk, clips bolts or ski.

Chalk is a sad thing when considering our obligations as stewards of the land. However, much like vegetation getting stomped out at the base of route, it's in no way permanent. As far as bolts are concerned, I have yet to see a camoed tooling mark and there is one bolt per half dozen to a dozen moves on most sport climbs. With dry tooling, there's at least two rock scars from EVERY move from just your axe. Heaven forbid you're wearing crampons too. That and I can't count the number of times a bolt has been properly removed and remarks have been made about not being able to tell it was ever there.

I hate getting stuck in this "you're wrong" mentality. I'm completely willing to respect this style of climbing if you put some perspective into area selection and how dry-toolers do have respect for our crags by selecting such areas.

Long story short: If you're getting mainstream publicity for a style of climbing like this, you have the obligation to create awareness around it's ethics.

People are whining about drytooling, what is this, 2002? And in Ouray of all places. What's next, complaining when someone puts up a new route at the Cineplex?