First Ascents?

I've been following Tommy Caldwell's progress on the Dawn Wall and it raised a question; what is (generally) considered a first ascent on big walls\trad climbs etc.? If TC starts at the bottom and sends every pitch, that's a FA. What if he sends the first 29 and falls on the 30th? Does he have to start again at the bottom or can he just climb that specific pitch until he gets the redpoint? If a team gets a FA, does that mean that they both redpointed each pitch or that they swapped leads\jugged pitches?

On any multipitch route, the FFA requires climbing each pitch free, and I would say, in order from top to bottom.

If you fall on pitch 2 (or 22) you lower off, pull your gear, and re-lead that pitch. If you want style points, re-place that high piece when you get back to it. A fall on p5 doesn't mean you have to re-lead from pitch 1.

Some teams have reported "team free" ascents (skinner/piana, Rutherford/Sorkin) which means that all pitches were lead free, but not necessarily followed free. Especially in the mountains when the follower has a pack (or obviously when jugging) it's not really possible to cover terrain while both climbers freeclimb yet still bring your gear or food with you.

I think red-pointing is bottom to top, no falls, at least sport climbs. Trad and aid I'm not sure. I would think red-pointing on aid is just topping out and your most likely to have some falls along the way. Trad would be more like sport just no bolts.. so I couldn't call it a red-point myself unless I didn't have any falls or use the aid. First assents a whole nother issue. Hell. You could hike to the top of a cliff and if your the first to top out there... first assent. Guys and gals all over the world are doing FA's while falling and gouging their way to the top. Anyway, climbing with my partner who seems pretty into this stuff won't allow me to call a red-point unless I complete the climb from bottom to top with no falls or aid, or long rests, on our sport routes. When we aid climb, we sometimes have a few falls. If its a route that we know or strongly believe no ones climbed, it's a FA not a red-point. He's got a few so far.. me.. none! In fact, I've only been off my practice crags twice so far. If I aid one of our bolted routes for practice, its a nothing. I really like where I climb but it's time to move it up a notch... next week (hopefully) i'm hitting a seven or eight hundred foot wall... ooh yea!

Am I the only one that as no idea what Ronnie just said???

So what kind of climbing do I have to do to get a muave-point? Oh wait, isn't that when you climb blindfolded with no falls on the first try while also keeping your neighbor's friendly gerbil perched on your shoulder eating a rice crispy treat?

Jace - you're such a n00b. That's a magenta-point. It's only a mauve point if the gerbil gets frisky with your fleece while you're climbing.

Ronnie - I'm still not sure what you meant but I love your enthusiasm. Go tackle that wall!!

When doing FAs I track them this way:

FFA: First free ascent. This is the goal for most of what I climb. A no-falls ascent placing all gear or clipping bolts on lead.
FATR: First ascent - top rope: A no-falls ascent with a top rope. This may be a precursor to doing a FFA, or to figure out where bolts need to go, or maybe because all I intend is for it to be a top rope route.
FAA: First ascent - assisted. Could be pulling on gear, resting on gear, pulling up on trees or roots (live aid), etc. These don't count for much. The route still needs to be freed. I also include a no-falls ascent that had pre-placed gear. It's not FFA yet until all the gear is placed or bolts clipped on lead with no falls.
FA: First ascent of a route that includes an intentional aid section or pitch. Has to be a no falls ascent, or it's still FAA. Sometimes these go FFA later, but initially they are routes with aid sections. Sometimes someone else gets the FFA.

I keep notes on these things, including who, when, and what needs to be done next. Things to do next might be, install anchors at the top, bolt up the parts that need it, FFA, etc.

On multipitch, the entire route needs for each pitch to be freed during a single push. Caldwell and Jorgeson had this as their standard on the DW. Keep trying each pitch until it is freed, then you get to move on. Tommy went ahead for a while after the traverse when Kevin was stuck there, but he came back and they freed pitches together after that. Tommy could have had the FFA of the whole thing but he wanted Kevin in on that, so he came back and they did it.

Last weekend my partner got the FFA on a FATR he had done previously. I followed but fell twice, so I'm not counting myself in the FFA. He gets that to himself. Even though I made it up the thing and did all the moves, my two falls count me out of the FFA.

I love thread resurrection! So I'll continue it and ask a question.

Been wondering this a while - the Eldo Levin guidebook does some editorializing of a FA by saying "First Lead..., 2001, after toproping". Seems like some serious shade to me for a 5.13c R/X trad line. I understand the implication there as toproping a climb before a lead attempt is less worthy than a pure lead without a top rope attempt first...aka onsight. I'd never thought anything wrong with toproping before a lead FA attempt/success, particularly on really hard/sketch stuff. I've never seen that attitude in other guidebooks. What is the thought about that?

Generally  lines with r or x protection, that are difficult are rehearsed  on top rope    before leading. As the consequences are very high and nobody wants to win a Darwin Award.

Jack Crackerson wrote: I love thread resurrection! So I'll continue it and ask a question.

Been wondering this a while - the Eldo Levin guidebook does some editorializing of a FA by saying "First Lead..., 2001, after toproping". Seems like some serious shade to me for a 5.13c R/X trad line. I understand the implication there as toproping a climb before a lead attempt is less worthy than a pure lead without a top rope attempt first...aka onsight. I'd never thought anything wrong with toproping before a lead FA attempt/success, particularly on really hard/sketch stuff. I've never seen that attitude in other guidebooks. What is the thought about that?

That's why I keep the dates of each separate. An FFA after a FATR is just one natural progression. There are others. Each is noteworthy to some degree, but an FFA is the best IMO. I guess you could throw FFS in there as a higher mark if you want to include free solo. I don't go there. I think free soloing is reckless, selfish, and sets a bad example.

However I confess to watching Honnold in Free Solo, mainly to understand his mind.

This question is best asked by looking to a definitive source, as opposed to gathering opinions. The only source that has any authority is the people doing this for a living.

Someone that knows some pros, what's the rules? And more, what is even sought after? FA only, based on every guide book ever made.

It is nice to know what is significant to different people, so fire away. Mine are: equipper, redpoint=FA, and anyone that helped in the process of you sending, which is the goal. It's always nice to have dates and records, too.

Tricam Apostle wrote:

Lol, given your homemade bolt thread from a couple days back.

Lol, given you read the words and you still didnt understand what was said. You could always just make up whatever you WANTED me to say, and then transfer your snowflakery to the new thread, but that seems trolly, and you're OBVIOUSLY not a troll.

Just admit. You, and the outrage squad on here, cant stand the idea of me taking many many months of hard work and research, along side highly qualified and trained people, to create something that far exceeds any climbing anchor standards. I would NEVER trust anyone online for advice on something so critical,  not that anyone gave any anyways. It would be just too hard to swallow, that Jim isnt the only person on this planet that has the qualifications to twist a stainless steel rod. The bolting cartel is real on here. They teamed up with the anon trolls on RRC and the FGI dynamic duo to bring us all a laughable coalition of trolls.

Ma Ja wrote:

Lol, given you read the words and you still didnt understand what was said. You could always just make up whatever you WANTED me to say, and then transfer your snowflakery to the new thread, but that seems trolly, and you're OBVIOUSLY not a troll.

Just admit. You, and the outrage squad on here, cant stand the idea of me taking many many months of hard work and research, along side highly qualified and trained people, to create something that far exceeds any climbing anchor standards. I would NEVER trust anyone online for advice on something so critical,  not that anyone gave any anyways. It would be just too hard to swallow, that Jim isnt the only person on this planet that has the qualifications to twist a stainless steel rod. The bolting cartel is real on here. They teamed up with the anon trolls on RRC and the FGI dynamic duo to bring us all a laughable coalition of trolls.

Please learn the definition of “troll”. 

Jim Titt wrote:

Now do you see why I dont ask questions of strangers on the internet? I prefer relying on advice from people who do this type of work professionally, in person, you incomprehensibly dumb troll.

Hey guys, I'm Jim Titt, and bending metal is easy, that's why I was scared when Ma Ja posted his thread, before i realised that everyone is too lazy and stupid to do it, and that the snowflakes of MP had my back.

Guess why I quoted this.

Ma Ja wrote: This question is best asked by looking to a definitive source, as opposed to gathering opinions. The only source that has any authority is the people doing this for a living.

Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence.

Damn you guys, for a second my brain had this disconnect where it felt like Jimbo was still with us.

Necroposting follows the rules of ‘Pet Sematary’... nothing good comes back after being dead.
let dead threads stay dead!
Blame Keith Wood for creating a monster outta this thread ...