Crack Ratings at PG Presidio

I know this will annoy some of you with me asking such a question again, but hey, I'm trying to establish a standard here!

PG Presidio has been a rainy weekend paradise for me, worth the commute & guest pass mooch when I can't get out on real rock, and it provides great training. I just wish I knew how certain cracks likely translated to outdoor ratings.

Below is a floor plan map of the gyms with the cracks marked and (whimsically) named. I've rated the ones I've done clean with my best opinion of the rating based on what I've climbed outside. For all double cracks I only climbed either the left or the right for the given rating.

I would love additional opinions to establish some consensus of crack ratings, or to get a sense of how hard the few cracks are that I haven't done!

Hey Mark,

my two cents...

1- Overhanging flared fist crack is not 5.7 to me. Maybe 5.9 if you have big hands and tape gloves.
4 & 5 - These both feel like about 10a to me. Varied from hands to fingers.
6 - Pulling the roof is hard, even using both cracks. Maybe 10d?
8 & 9 - I think you would be hard-pressed to find a dead vertical crack outside rated as easy as 5.6. These vary, but I don't think they are ever easier than 5.8/9. Maybe as hard as 10c when they are set at tight hands. So I'd say 5.9-10c.
12 & 13 - These vary from perfect hands to fingers and everything in between. I'd say 5.9-11a.
15 - Offwidth is 10a and fingers is 10c. Perfect finger locks.

Hey Justin,

Thanks for the feedback.

Re Crack 1: My friend Vitaliy insisted that I rate Crack 1 harder, but since I could do laps on it w/o tape for a warmup, it seemed pretty easy & is hard for me to tell how technical it is if you're used to jamming in flares. I guess I'll let up on him and consider it a harder grade :-) He was suggesting 5.8 at the least or 5.9.

re Crack 15: .10c fingers? Lower part felt like .10c but the last body length still kicks my butt - I still seem to lose my feet & fall at least once. A friend who excels on the thin stuff thought it was about .11a to .11b, and I've heard another opinion for .11a. I've never fallen on Sherrie's Crack (.10c) or Five & Dime (.10d), but the solid jams felt about as intensive to me as Short Circuit (.11b), but none of those are this thin or you're using feet on slab instead of crack, so maybe it is just me lacking in foot technique for thin cracks? It sounds like the consensus would be averaging out at .10d so far.

If that OW is .10a, then I'd better be less timid about leading some of the starter .10a OWs! I've been mostly limiting myself to 5.9 climbs in the Valley unless it is a 5.10 finger or hand crack, and most of my outside OW experience has been in the .10b to .10c range on TR.

BTW, congrats on your excellent Half Dome send!

Crack 1: Yeah, probably not too bad if you have bigger than average hands. It's a bit wide for me though.

Crack 15: I would give you 5.9 for the OW. It's pretty solid if you're into that sort of thing, which I'm not... :-)

Crack 11 has only been led by one guy, Jim Herson. It can be done on TR but the swing is like a trapeze if you pop. I've seen other people do it feet out but not cleanly. Chatter is it goes at .14 but when I asked Jim, he just kind of nodded his head and said, now that he had it dialed, it was hard to tell but maybe. Thanks Capn' Meathooks!

Second what jpvandever said.

Hi Mark, I'm not annoyed by this at all. Great discussion!

1 - I can run laps on this crack as well but would def not rate it 5.7. Reason - I have yet to come across an overhanging crack of any width that is 5.7. I would put it at 10a for the steepness
2 - 10a because the crux finger section is low angle
3 - 5.9 because the lower hand crack is slightly overhanging
4, 5 - I would rate these about the same - 10a. Steepness is exactly the same and they both have wavy hand cracks with finger cracks mixed in. Reminds me of Dominion in Sugarloaf
6 - ? (Too weak to pull the roof)
7 - ? (Burl-fest. 3/4 is about as far as I can go in one try)
8,9 - Adjustable and ever changing
10 - Right crack only - 10d; left crack only - ?; both cracks - 10c
11 - ? (The legend of Herson lives on)
12,13 - Adjustable and ever changing
14 - ? (Any advice on this damn crack would be much appreciated)
15 - OW 5.9; finger ? (I've fallen on the last move at least a half dozen times)

hard to say--i use very different tactics in the gym. many attempts on TR, vs. mostly onsight outside. but here's my take, using the valley as the benchmark (all of these ratings are "-ish," and I have small hands)

1. 5.9
2. 10-
3. 5.8
4. 5.9
5. 10- (crux start)
6. 10- (unusually sensitive to beta/sequence)
7. 10+
8. adj
9. adj
10. 5.9 (using both cracks)
11. 5.hard
12. adj
13. adj
14. 10
15. 10- ow, 10+ finish

cheers,

p.

• My fiancee, Crusher, argues that the twin lead cracks are 10-, not 5.9.

Just did some a bunch of crack work today, and want to add a little more detailed opinion, than my last.

1- 5.9 seems like a pretty good concenous on this guy

2- I agree with the upper 10 rating on this guy since you really either have to have the perfect sized fingers for it, or like most people, have your ring locks and camming on your fingers down.

4 and 5. Are these ratings for going strait up on the right or left or "following" the wide or thin lines? In my mind there are 4 different "routes" right there.

6-Mid 10 range I think it accurate for 95% of it, even though pulling the roof it is a pretty physical move, it's not (at least for me) an insecure hold. I got a pretty solid thin hand jam in that first move after the roof. But in the top where it gets really shallow is def a great place to see if you have ring locks down (which I don't :P) which is the other 5% that makes it seem harder than the ring locks on #2 so upper 10. If it makes any difference to you guys I only used the left crack on the roof (didn't feel the right is any harder or easier when I was "bouldering" the roof).

And I have yet to go through the trouble of getting my lead card but I have a question about the "Twin lines". I was watching a few people doing it today and wondering why people don't just stick to the left or the right? I've never heard of a double crack like that happening IRL. Just seems to me like those 3 variations (left, right, both) and the 4 variations of the "Wave-E" cracks should get there own rating.

For 4 & 5 my rating in the drawing is based on doing the cracks as separate climbs, not using the other crack in any way.

Regarding the double cracks, I have encountered double parallel sets of cracks outside, but in most cases they are either farther apart or have a different orientation. I climbed one set on Eichorn's West Pillar the other weekend where the cracks were best jammed by crossing my arms just short of my wrists. Bong's Away Left is one of the few exceptions of thin-to-wide cracks that are parallel & close for a long ways, where you are jamming between a bunch of stacked flakes. In the gym I figured it's a way to allow people to make the cracks a little but easier, using the other crack however much is helpful for moving up.

Daniel C, regarding the harder OW (14).

I've finally been able to get it clean now (as of last Fall). In comparison to the easier OW (15), I've been climbing it pretty much with the same technique. The only difference is that it is less secure, so you can't rest as well. Also the outside heel-toe requires a bit more precision to placement. I think I also just move up in smaller increments to avoid taxing my core & arms too much, or getting too insecure. I used to get hot spots on my heel-toe foot, but I think a change in shoes to some stiffer ones (TC Pros) helped that.

So basically, if you can do the (15) OW, I'd just recommend working the same techniques on the (14) OW and pay close attention to how subtle differences in motion feel. Eventually you'll learn to rest & move more securely.

---

As I think about it more, the (14) OW might work more easily/securely with the sidewinder technique in the lower part. I know I've rotated fairly horizontal down there in an attempt to rest. I'll mess around with that and report back as to if it works in this crack, or if I'm too fat :-)

Any advice for someone that can climb 14, but not 15?   14 is wider, so I can heel-toe it pretty well. But on 15, my heel-toe is damn near pointed straight down, so it just slips out.  I know I want to be sideways in it though, because it's maybe .5 inchs too wide for a fist stack, so I'm definitely arm barring it.  Do I just need to get better at narrow heel-toe?  I'm a size 9 in tc pros.

I also find the bottom 5 feet of the SV PG off-width to be the hardest part, then it widens and I can get heel-toes to work no problem. 

Mike Horan wrote: Any advice for someone that can climb 14, but not 15?   14 is wider, so I can heel-toe it pretty well. But on 15, my heel-toe is damn near pointed straight down, so it just slips out.  I know I want to be sideways in it though, because it's maybe .5 inchs too wide for a fist stack, so I'm definitely arm barring it.  Do I just need to get better at narrow heel-toe?  I'm a size 9 in tc pros.

I also find the bottom 5 feet of the SV PG off-width to be the hardest part, then it widens and I can get heel-toes to work no problem. 

I use a high knee to cam myself in to get off the ground, then switch to a heel toe. I have size 10.5 feet (stretched out 8.5 moccs), so if you are larger, you might have to work harder on the heel toe or stay with the knee cam. make sure you go right side in.

I don't really see how people keep rating the overhanging hands 5.9. If compared to the 10c section on the Enema, sure, maybe low 10 if you use both cracks.

Just knowing what my friends and I onsight in the valley, I think you guys sandbag worse than I do. I am grading these based on how I think they would feel on lead with gear.

1) 5.9+
2) 5.11a (but I have fat hands)
3) 5.9
4) 5.10
5) 5.10
6) 5.10+
7) 5.11-
8) null
9) null
10 both) 5.10
10 right) 5.10+
10 left) 5.11+
11) I'll trust Jim
12) null
13) null
14) 5.10
15) 5.9 OW
      5.11 Fingers

Thanks for the response! Sounds like your foot is a 1/2 size bigger than mine which means I have no excuse and I just need to work on my heel-toe technique.  Good to know either way. Now I can at least strugglefest with the right beta instead of the wrong beta. 

Laughing that I never saw the original thread on this post - thanks for digging this up Mike!

Most of these climbs have posted ratings from PG now. They also recently put up what looks like a small white board to capture the ever changing adjustable cracks grades (#12/13 at least).

#2 is my nemesis. Never clean, always close.

#14/15 is also dependent on your preference for ride side / left side in technique. I prefer right side in and naturally do much better with #15 vs. #14. I'm sure if I put more time into #14 I'd see similar results.

Someone once told me that you need to put a vertical mile in for each crack width in order to master the technique.

Just curious, what would y'all rate the cracks at Mission Cliffs?

Interesting point about the right/left side in. I suppose with 14 my dominate foot (right) is the outside foot, so doing all the work. Maybe that's also why I find it so much easier.  I do think the larger size helps a ton for me though since I can get a better heel-toe jam.

For MCs:  

The two cracks to the right of the arch in the grotto-ish area:  Left crack I'd say 5.8 with a 5.9 crux at the small hands part. Feels similar to the 4 foot 5.9 small hands crux on Super Slide. Right crack I'd say 5.10- until the end, then 5.11 for that last bit where it angles left.

The finger crack way back in the corner across from the front desk:  5.11?  I don't know, I haven't sent it yet.  

And let's not forget about Great Western, which has my all-time favorite gym crack, the hand crack across from the smokestack. I'd call that 5.10- and so much fun. The ringlock crack next to the smokestack is probably 5.11, but not sure, I haven't sent it clean yet.

Taylor Lapeyre wrote: Just curious, what would y'all rate the cracks at Mission Cliffs?

CCL Represent!!!

I wonder how often they clean those things?

Hep C anyone?