How does this make you feel?

David Sahalie wrote: great trolling.. best i've seen this year. funny because it is true. constantly amazed how the weakest of the sport (trad daddies), get to define the 'ethics'

Dude-your resentment of aging trad males is real tiresome.Have you consulted a mental health professional?The old guys in these parts still do routes that would kill you;and they only "define" ethics by example.
Joe

David Sahalie wrote: .... what did you see first? girl or plastic holds on rock?

The girl. Who the hell wouldn't notice her first?

I know regular boat motors are illegal there, but do they allow trolling motors at Devil's Lake?

David Sahalie wrote: great trolling.. best i've seen this year. funny because it is true. constantly amazed how the weakest of the sport (trad daddies), get to define the 'ethics'

Pretty funny that you don't get the joke here.

Being weak or strong has no bearing on who defines the ethics, if anything it's experience. Better yet I think Sven's comment that the old guys define ethics by example is spot on.

TR'ing is also lame albeit sometime a necessarily evil at DL. TR is the same as sport climbing anyway. It's ALL better than work!

Trolling motors are legal at Da' Lake.

Back to the issue at hand. The multiple lines on the boulder are the expression of someone's interpretation of "climbing". Maybe their "art" even. However, I think it impedes on the efficient layout of the database. There MUST be some sort of compromise here!

Trad Ninja wrote: The multiple lines on the boulder are the expression of someone's interpretation of "climbing". Maybe their "art" even. However, I think it impedes on the efficient layout of the database. There MUST be some sort of compromise here!

as long as the route descriptions and graphics make sense to the target audience I don't see what the big deal is. there is no way I'm gonna' tell those FREAKS that just LOVE the Fisher Towers that thier topos are whack and make no sense. they are into a type of climbing that I won't even consider, so I just let them live.

David Sahalie wrote: Dude, Ninja's ethics get bothered by lines photoshopped on a photo! where is the example in that?

Nick is on record as enjoying trolling for fun and sport.On the other hand;you seem to have an active dislike for old guys with the temerity to still climb despite the ravages of time. Do you plan on quitting climbing when you can no longer pull hard? I'm a couple of years from finishing my fourth decade as a climber,and I definitely have better things to do than tell some arrogant punk how to climb.

Damn! It's heating up again. I may have pulled my chips out too early... Uh, yeah, you fat traddies and your topographical nature maps are weak... uh, bouldering rocks...? Crap. Lost the momentum.

David Sahalie wrote: constantly amazed how the weakest of the sport (trad daddies), get to define the 'ethics'

Where I'm from, the older you get, the harder you climb. In fact, I've climbed with plenty of 50 and 60 year-olds that climb at least a number grade harder than me. And there is no sport climbing here... so we are all trad daddies.

Isn't New Mexico one of the retirement states anyways? You know... like Florida? Maybe that's why you think old people can't climb. Because the old climbers you see didn't get started until after they finished the first part of their lives.

Kid Icarus wrote:Damn! It's heating up again. I may have pulled my chips out too early... Uh, yeah, you fat traddies and your topographical nature maps are weak... uh, bouldering rocks...? Crap. Lost the momentum.

Don't worry-and don't try to force it.It'll flow again when you're ready. Besides, too much of that stuff you were coming up with could cause a craniorectal inversion, and no one wants that.

A few points from a local climber:

1. I have found that it is quite common in bouldering to have several variations on a boulder. Every area I have been to seems to embrace sit-starts and line divergence to make separate quality problems.
2. Devil’s Lake is the real deal for bouldering. I have had the opportunity to travel all over the country sampling popular destinations. From my experience Devil’s Lake has some of the highest quality problems anywhere, and there is a ton of rock here. I think it is justifiable to have a bouldering guide as thick as the Bible. There are that many great problems or potential problems out there, let’s encourage everyone to participate in establishing these lines and keeping them clean.
3. Why not encourage everyone to help with establishing new problems. I see much more good than harm coming from this practice. If the only criticism of adding lines is that a visiting climber may be disappointed, is this really a valid concern? Has this ever happened? Do you really think a climber would be disappointed with the lake?
4. Who is to decide what is a line, a quality line, or a legitimate boulder problem? This is no criticism of Dobbe, I like his problems, but he is guilty of participating in the same practice he is condemning: mountainproject.com/v/press…, mountainproject.com/v/two-t…
5. Mountain Project should be a place to add creatively to the climbing resource. Let’s embrace this instead of discourage it. Better to put up with a couple of half-ass boulder problems (let the consensus decide this) than dissuade climbers from contributing.
6. I personally really enjoy the variants that are going up at the lake. I live very far from the gym and appreciate all the new routes going up at the lake. Something new goes up every week and I am always psyched to get out. Very rarely have I been disappointed by any routes and I have found that some of my disappointments have been other peoples’ favorites. Who’s to say.

Kid Icarus wrote:Damn! It's heating up again. I may have pulled my chips out too early... Uh, yeah, you fat traddies and your topographical nature maps are weak... uh, bouldering rocks...? Crap. Lost the momentum.

You cranked too close to the sun.

Sahalie, you gotta' do Legends man!..if you haven't already.

Kid Icarus wrote: If it makes you feel better, I'm still kind of a sonofabitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl3nfzU4irE&feature=related

Ever notice how bread ripped from a loaf by the teeth tastes better than when sliced then eaten? Seriously.. try it sometime. If you just grab a large baguette or fresh deli roll and just start ripping/eating the flavor is actually better than if you take the time to slice off a piece then stuff it in your mouth. Maybe when the air hits the sliced surface there's some reaction that degrades the taste.. or possibly the non-uniform, torn surface contributes.. or some primal satisfaction is being achieved.

hmmmm.... seems to me that some people like burnt toast, some people enjoy eating flakey french croissants, some people like a fat classic aged rye roll. As long as the boulderers dont force me to eat burnt toast and the sport climbers dont force me to eat croissants who cares?

Kid Icarus, I think you're approaching this whole subject a tad bit too sensitively. You are certainly entitled to your opinions but you seem silly when you're initiating a dick measuring contest over the internet. I don't think Trad Ninja intended to hurt anybody's feelings- he only asked a simple question and you're definitely fueling his trolling fire. Also, calling Robbins a crusty shows a complete disrespect for the evolution of this sport and claiming that you're one of the few climbers "tryiing hard" because you're primarily a boulderer is naive. Do what you love to do and try to avoid getting into these flame wars- that's my advice.

As I suspected, Hank's a fascist!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqSDvMMzE8

Andy Hansen wrote:Kid Icarus, I think you're approaching this whole subject a tad bit too sensitively. You are certainly entitled to your opinions but you seem silly when you're initiating a dick measuring contest over the internet. I don't think Trad Ninja intended to hurt anybody's feelings- he only asked a simple question and you're definitely fueling his trolling fire. Also, calling Robbins a crusty shows a complete disrespect for the evolution of this sport and claiming that you're one of the few climbers "tryiing hard" because you're primarily a boulderer is naive. Do what you love to do and try to avoid getting into these flame wars- that's my advice.

Reading the entire thread before replying... FAIL.

I bow my hat to you Ninja for this might be the best of your trolls and you have not taken a stance as far as I can tell, classy. I want to disagree with you but don't know what to say . . . . Yet. Must be raining and crappy up North with a prediction of rainy and crappy weather for the next six months. That weather gives a man too much time to think, drink, and stink. Go Pack.

Mike Lohre wrote:A few points from a local climber: 1. I have found that it is quite common in bouldering to have several variations on a boulder. Every area I have been to seems to embrace sit-starts and line divergence to make separate quality problems. 2. Devil’s Lake is the real deal for bouldering. I have had the opportunity to travel all over the country sampling popular destinations. From my experience Devil’s Lake has some of the highest quality problems anywhere, and there is a ton of rock here. I think it is justifiable to have a bouldering guide as thick as the Bible. There are that many great problems or potential problems out there, let’s encourage everyone to participate in establishing these lines and keeping them clean. 3. Why not encourage everyone to help with establishing new problems. I see much more good than harm coming from this practice. If the only criticism of adding lines is that a visiting climber may be disappointed, is this really a valid concern? Has this ever happened? Do you really think a climber would be disappointed with the lake? 4. Who is to decide what is a line, a quality line, or a legitimate boulder problem? This is no criticism of Dobbe, I like his problems, but he is guilty of participating in the same practice he is condemning: mountainproject.com/v/press…, mountainproject.com/v/two-t… 5. Mountain Project should be a place to add creatively to the climbing resource. Let’s embrace this instead of discourage it. Better to put up with a couple of half-ass boulder problems (let the consensus decide this) than dissuade climbers from contributing. 6. I personally really enjoy the variants that are going up at the lake. I live very far from the gym and appreciate all the new routes going up at the lake. Something new goes up every week and I am always psyched to get out. Very rarely have I been disappointed by any routes and I have found that some of my disappointments have been other peoples’ favorites. Who’s to say.

As long as all that additional content is contained away from other climbing beta, I don't really have an issue. When I peruse the 'Whats New' section to see what new routes are listed it is minor inconvenience to filter past all the newly listed boulder problems (at areas that folks have been working on for many years usually). Not enough to really bug me, but I do usually kinda repeat a 'why bother?' to myself.
But to me its all against what the essence of bouldering is. And to me bouldering has always been a place for undefined exploring without all the rules of a regular ascent. You have a problem, and you work it through and either succeed or fail (or fail and fail until you succeed). I can see where contrivances come in, when an area is heavily used and there's nothing much new to do. It is also a good game w/ your buddies. But it just rubs me the wrong way when every single variation needs to cataloged here. Thats boxing it in, removing the sense of un-regulated movement that what appeals to me about bouldering. You should never need to look up beta for a GD boulder problem other than where it is and what kind of problems (grade) you can find there. We should all have enough imagination to be able to say "now try it this way" w/out having to look it up first.