DRAW THIEF CAUGHT AT PRIMO WALL!!!

Ben Walburn wrote:Yes wild west style. He was hiding behind a tree confirming guilt. I cant wait to read one of these posts where the thief gets his ass beat. Those who operate outside the law do not deserve any lawful consideration.

youtube live action vid please when it happens.

So can we get the plate number? I'm a fan of vigilante justice.

Misleading title. Should be 'draw thief encountered, sort of' at Primo Wall. Caught means you sat on him until the sheriffs came.

I hate to bust everyone's bubble, taking quickdraws off a route while morally reprehensible and unethical is not, technically, illegal. It would fall under the title of abandoned property. Don't expect the cops to help you out on this one, a smashed car window perhaps but quickdraws, not so much

I know a guy who was walking his dog, got into an argument w/ a neighbor and gave him a shove. By the end of all that came afterwards it was a $50K shove.

bubbawayne wrote:I hate to bust everyone's bubble, taking quickdraws off a route while morally reprehensible and unethical is not, technically, illegal. It would fall under the title of abandoned property. Don't expect the cops to help you out on this one, a smashed car window perhaps but quickdraws, not so much

Not necessarily. This specific topic came up in all the dramz about draw stripping at the RRG last week. This quote below is from a former director of the climber's coalition there, who is also an attorney:

"Project draws under the law are not necessarily abandoned property. They are unattended property. It is the intent of the owner that generally controls. The FS may consider project draws that way but they do so for convenience and because they give notice, as a land owner/manager can, and should. But when there is no clear guidance on the subject, it is the intent of the owner of the property whether it was meant to be unattended or abandoned, and therefore subject for seizure."

redriverclimbing.com/viewto…

camhead wrote: Not necessarily. This specific topic came up in all the dramz about draw stripping at the RRG last week. This quote below is from a former director of the climber's coalition there, who is also an attorney: "Project draws under the law are not necessarily abandoned property. They are unattended property. It is the intent of the owner that generally controls. The FS may consider project draws that way but they do so for convenience and because they give notice, as a land owner/manager can, and should. But when there is no clear guidance on the subject, it is the intent of the owner of the property whether it was meant to be unattended or abandoned, and therefore subject for seizure."

Interesting, is there any precedent with this theory?

It would probably be up to the officer on site if he wanted to bother taking time to stop a a draw thief. If someone left a $20 bill on the ground and someone else picked it up I don't think there would be a strong theft case. Of course they should be concerned about the car break ins.

I say put a note on this D-Bags car letting him know that everyone knows what he's up to. I bet he'd never be seen again.

Sorry to hear somebody lost some property. It definitely sounds like a bit of a shifty situation.

Also sorry to hear that land managers and police are being alerted to a practice that most will oppose. Crags are getting closed for this. It is clearly not an inalienable human right, and its widespread practice is fairly new.

Please be careful if things eventually come down to a situation of simple convenience versus local access. It is better to fly under the radar in most situations in my humble opinion.

Cheers from Osaka,

John

Trad Ninja wrote: Interesting, is there any precedent with this theory? It would probably be up to the officer on site if he wanted to bother taking time to stop a a draw thief. If someone left a $20 bill on the ground and someone else picked it up I don't think there would be a strong theft case.

I have exactly as much expertise in this as you do. Click the link that I posted to get any other details.

However, if we are speculating and talking out of our asses while trying to draw worthwhile comparisons, here's one that I think would be relevant to the project draws as abandoned/unattended property.

What if you were on a multi-day backpacking expedition and you left your tent in a base camp, while going out for a day hike? Would that be abandoned property? What if you left a tent at a basecamp while doing a week-long bigwall in the High Sierras? If in either of those situations the tent and any other basecamp gear was stolen off of public land, it would just be common sense to get the police involved.

Trad Ninja wrote: Interesting, is there any precedent with this theory? It would probably be up to the officer on site if he wanted to bother taking time to stop a a draw thief. If someone left a $20 bill on the ground and someone else picked it up I don't think there would be a strong theft case. Of course they should be concerned about the car break ins. I say put a note on this D-Bags car letting him know that everyone knows what he's up to. I bet he'd never be seen again.

I say you attach that note to a rock and put it through the car window.

johnL wrote:I don't think I'd be shooting anyone over a draw. Not even a body shot. I've got to think though that a gun in a face of some dink trying to score free keychains would instantly alter his perception of acceptable risk. I say keep the gun unloaded, get crazy, scream, put the gun in his mouth and spout lines from movies, maybe even play some roulette. Give this guy the impression that climbers are out of their god damned minds. Also, please please please, get a video of it.

In Colorado, threatening someone with a deadly weapon is a FELONY.

You don't even have to show the weapon, just make a THREAT.

That's right just a statement will hurt your life. Tell your family, friends, co-workers if you have them you are a FELON.

The act of pointing a gun at someone, saying you will shoot them if they don't do what you say will get you Attempted Murder, Kidnapping, Disturbing the Peace, ETC. All rolled into one.

This link is for you crazy gun lovers out there that want to take vigilante actions.

ehow.com/about_7217170_defi…

camhead wrote: Not necessarily. This specific topic came up in all the dramz about draw stripping at the RRG last week. This quote below is from a former director of the climber's coalition there, who is also an attorney: "Project draws under the law are not necessarily abandoned property. They are unattended property. It is the intent of the owner that generally controls. The FS may consider project draws that way but they do so for convenience and because they give notice, as a land owner/manager can, and should. But when there is no clear guidance on the subject, it is the intent of the owner of the property whether it was meant to be unattended or abandoned, and therefore subject for seizure." redriverclimbing.com/viewto…

Not in Colorado and not in Clear Creek County/Jeffco County.

For those interested: little leprechaun thief from Smith rock:

Leprechaun thief.

So is the guy in green stealing a leprechaun with his quick-draw, is that what a leprechaun thief does?

Ben Beard wrote: I say you attach that note to a rock and put it through the car window.

I like this idea, maybe use your guns on his tires as well

i've wondered about the abandoned property angle as well. is my truck abandoned when i leave it at the trailhead while i'm on a 3-day outing?

Buff Johnson wrote:So is the guy in green stealing a leprechaun with his quick-draw, is that what a leprechaun thief does?

I should have explained the picture more clearly. The leprechaun fellow was quietly collecting draws from nearby sport routes, and otherwise minding his own business, when he was accosted by the aggressive sport climber in green.

Killis Howard wrote:Somebody send koreo a random plate number so he can go chasing after a total stranger with a baseball bat based on internet rumor. Wake up call to tough-talking tuffguys: when you threaten, brandish a weapon, or strike a stranger, you open yourself up to pretty cut-and-dried legal consequences. Seen it happen myself. If they have a witness or even just a sympathetic judge, you will pay fines and/or go to jail. Sorry to dilute the testosterone, just pointing out the reality. Having assault, battery and other fun stuff on your record might have a longer effect on your hiring potential than a few biners will on your wallet. You may now return to your regularly scheduled nonsense.

Have to be arrested first and proven guilty. Legal system is far from perfect kids. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and a clean record. Wake up call to the samaritan.
Flame on kids.

camhead wrote: I have exactly as much expertise in this as you do. Click the link that I posted to get any other details. However, if we are speculating and talking out of our asses while trying to draw worthwhile comparisons, here's one that I think would be relevant to the project draws as abandoned/unattended property. What if you were on a multi-day backpacking expedition and you left your tent in a base camp, while going out for a day hike? Would that be abandoned property? What if you left a tent at a basecamp while doing a week-long bigwall in the High Sierras? If in either of those situations the tent and any other basecamp gear was stolen off of public land, it would just be common sense to get the police involved.

Hey, I dunno either, just asking. I would guess time and value is an issue. If you leave a tent for three weeks and someone takes it I think cops will probably say "tough shit". It's a judgement call. As for project draws I think one month is a pretty fair period of time to say that after that they've been abandoned.

This guy isn't someone trying to make a point about proj draws obviously, he's a thief! Next time someone sees the car take dump on the hood.

johnL wrote:I don't think I'd be shooting anyone over a draw. Not even a body shot. I've got to think though that a gun in a face of some dink trying to score free keychains would instantly alter his perception of acceptable risk. I say keep the gun unloaded, get crazy, scream, put the gun in his mouth and spout lines from movies, maybe even play some roulette. Give this guy the impression that climbers are out of their god damned minds. Also, please please please, get a video of it.

Yes, because threatening someone with a gun never escalates or has unintended consequences. I know the thought of a douche like this being on the receiving end of an ass beating is really satisfying, but seriously...

You people (the ones calling for a beating as well as the gun commentary) are advocating violence as a response to petty theft.