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Perma Draw Removal Alert -WARNING: NSFW

Kid Icarus · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 15

The bolt wars continue... Deep thoughts, by Kid Icarus

I declare, I do like a nice line of permadraws for my hangdoggin' pleasure. I say, I say... (Kentuckese, you see)

This really is a case of those durn gym climbers.

Nursed on permadraws and now experiencing nipple confusion, entitled brats revolt! Other entitled brats left mewling in confusion.

I'm going back to the gym!

Dylan Colon · · Eugene, OR · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 491
David Sahalie wrote: yeah, you got me, visual impact from chalk is complete bullshit, permadraws are the real enemy
Just because lines of chalk on overhanging routes can be an eyesore doesn't mean that it doesn't matter if there are permadraws there making the problem worse. One of those two problems has an easy solution, so why not employ it and clean your draws when you're done with them?

That said if anyone has an easy solution to excessive chalk on the wall other than banning chalk let me know I'd be psyched.
Umph! · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 180
Dylan Colon wrote: Just because lines of chalk on overhanging routes can be an eyesore doesn't mean that it doesn't matter if there are permadraws there making the problem worse. One of those two problems has an easy solution, so why not employ it and clean your draws when you're done with them? That said if anyone has an easy solution to excessive chalk on the wall other than banning chalk let me know I'd be psyched.
Simple: color the chalk.
Umph! · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2004 · Points: 180
Dylan Colon wrote:. . .we might as well just figure out what the lowest common denominator is and get to it because an eventual arrival there is inevitable.
Seems this is the direction we're heading in all aspects of life and living - shame for sure.
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245

Yea... I'm not reading that. Only part of this thread that I care about: Killis' picture! She's my wife's lesbian fantasy... and obviously ranks pretty high up there on my list too.

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Hank Caylor · · Livin' in the Junk! · Joined Dec 2003 · Points: 643
Ryan Williams wrote:She's my wife's lesbian fantasy...
Allright Ryan, you married a FREAK too!! Mines is Salma Hayek..
Marathon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 275
cjdrover · · Watertown, MA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 355
David Sahalie wrote: yeah, you got me, visual impact from chalk is complete bullshit, permadraws are the real enemy
Yes, chalk is a visual impact from climbing as well, and one that far predates permadraws. However, the fact that chalk leaves a visual impact does not justify leaving other impacts. By this line of reasoning I might as well just take a shit mid-route because, hey, there's already chalk up there. In most cases permadraws are an easy fix because they are simply not needed. I made this point in my previous post, but since you had no actual rebuttal you chose instead to try to reframe my point into one that you could counter. Your attempt to deflect the discussion about permadraws onto chalk is both obvious and amusing.
Eric Krantz · · Black Hills · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 420
David Sahalie wrote: so if i started someone's car, drove it to the other side of the street, and put a sticky on it that said i didn't like where it was parked... that wouldn't be stealing?
not if the community bought the car for everyone to share
cjdrover · · Watertown, MA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 355
David Sahalie wrote: just because you can't get your head around the practicality of permadraws used by climbers of caves,
David, if you actually read my first post I stated that my main objection is the use of permadraws where they are convenient, not essential. My only comment about the missing draws in the Red is that this isn't the way I would have handled it, but I'm not losing sleep over it either. In your responses you've tried to put words in my mouth several times now that you've decided I'm one of the "enemies". You need to relax and remember to argue against points, not people.
Eric Krantz · · Black Hills · Joined Feb 2004 · Points: 420
David Sahalie wrote: ...this must be weird thread from the view of the black hills scene. you guys still can't replace bolts and pins on 20' run-outs right? and no new bolts?
Well, yes, a weird thread indeed.

I don't think a comparison of the Red to the BH is appropriate. We do have some overhanging 5.13 limestone (the VC) with PDs, but it's remote, small (only a few climbs), and receives so little traffic that those who go there pretty much decide the ethic. The typical tourist (or anyone else) never sees this place. And if someone wants to climb "clean", there are many other places in BH to go. We have some bad-asses around here who climb that stuff, but I'm not one of them. I totally admire those guys who are. Thing is, those guys also respect and uphold the ethic of the rest of the BH.

I really don't know what kind of pain-in-the-ass it is to clean draws from overhanging routes, because I'm not that interested in outdoor-gym style climbing (I'm in Brice's "adventure" group for sure).

Within the BH, the Needles has the strongest ethic, which is: (1) drill with hammer (2) drill on lead and (3) only the 1st ascentionist can add bolts or permit someone else to add them (I don't even know how one would go about drilling a bolt on an overhanging route). It pretty much follows that there is some spicy shit here. Bolts and pins can, however, be replaced if they are old or unsafe. This type of ethic, however, also prevents wankers from popping in grid bolts everywhere and creating contrived overlapping routes. Lots of thought goes into a route when you have to hand drill it.

As far as "Community" goes, I think that the LOCAL community should establish the local ethic. People that are traveling to the Red to climb can go somewhere else if they don't like the ethic (they're traveling already, right?) So if the local community decides that PDs are appropriate, so be it. We need to have an outdoor gym somewhere in the world, just for the sake of diversity. It's up to the local community at the Red to come together and agree on a course of action. Perhaps this includes some crags where PDs are permitted, and other crags where they aren't. The place certainly seems big enough for that. Then those fellows who want to get the sport-red-point (as they define it) have a chance to do so, and those who don't care can get their pump on.

Yesterday Cheryl and I biked in 10 minutes to the Needles Eye area - the road is closed now for the season. We were the only ones there. Goddamn I love the Black Hills.
England · · Colorado Springs · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 270
johnL wrote: Extreme noobery. So n00b, you don't even know your own n00bishness. Rapping the Undertow wall, cleaning my draws. Yep.
Hmmm- I remember a few years back I made my position on perma draws known(leave no trace)and you made a few choice comments in my direction. You flip your opinion when it suits you so you look more popular on this site.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

O' Man I way to far behind to jump into this thread too deep. I'm sorry I've missed it, too busy climbing.

M Sprague probably has the most reasonable attitude here, but my question is how will this be managed? The mob rule called "local ethics" will probably decent into discussions like this thread.

M Sprague wrote:I think perma draws have gotten completely out of hand in the US, and many need to be removed, but the Motherload is one of the few places where they really make sense. If a place is ridiculously steep, with no easy, non destructive access to the top, the bolts are widely spaced and is so popular that draws would basically be hanging continuously anyway, high quality perma draws can help keep traffic moving along. They just need to be as low impact visually as possible and kept in good shape. I don't like the proliferation to routes that really don't need them though. I am for them on certain routes at Rumney for instance, but I have also seen them sprouting up on routes where draws can be put on and cleaned very easily and for many years we all did that with no issues. I am not saying this from a macho attitude that disdains convenience (after all, it is sport climbing, where the point is the climbing and not fiddling with pro), but from an aesthetic that doesn't want the feeling that you are at a natural cliff and not in a gym destroyed. Over proliferation also increases the odds that they won't be maintained properly and we end up with a wall of unsightly and dangerous mess. Lets keep them to where they really make sense, like the Motherload, and resist the urge to leave them all over the place.
BScallout · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0

You will never speak for me...EVER! I for one, like Killis's take on this, and yes, I get WTF he is talking about. Maybe you should shave your dreads and get with woman without a moustache.

keep postin those pix Killis! Its about the best thing this thread has going for it.

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
Hank Caylor wrote: Allright Ryan, you married a FREAK too!! Mines is Salma Hayek..
Oh yea, Selma is up there too. We went through a season of 30 Rock together, maybe for no other reason than watching that sexy woman get just angry enough to turn us both on haha! I'm sure women that hot would sleep with my wife; now if I can just figure out how to get them to let me join in...
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
David Sahalie wrote: +1. I'm not impressed by the Admin lesbian fantasies either.
We're not writing for your benefit David... just having a little fun. Killis started it ;)

Anyways, I don't think Hank needs to tell any stories to impress you guys and I don't have any stories that would impress anyone if I did tell them... clearly not the point here.
Brice Harris · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 0
David Sahalie wrote: +1. i'm thinking killis is really a 5.10 offwidth climber scamming free wifi from starbucks from the back of his beat-ass van. I'm not impressed by the Admin lesbian fantasies either.
I don't see any problem with those aspects of life.
Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95

David's mad that nobody wants to play with him. Back off dude; Killis is the only one making this thread worth reading.

JohnWesely Wesely · · Lander · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 585
Troyd wrote:Companies tried colored chalk back in the day. It didnt work out for numerous reasons. One being red chalk on sandy white cliffs (for example) would look worse than white. Which translates to people being to stupid and not thinking about what they're doing. Anyway, from what I understand this is one of the reasons it didnt work out. The guy who taught me the mechanics of climbing has never used a chalk bag -chalk. And he gives me shit all the time for using it. Hes climbed all over the world. Multi-pitch, does mountaineering expeditions, climbs in the gym and claims to lead high .11s, trad and sport.. Hes says he climbed harder when he was younger. I think that speaks for itself. I personaly do use it, but obviously and I do believe you dont need it. For the most part, as he says, its a nerves compulsion, it gets your mind off of what your doing for a second. Whatever happened to the notion of a bail binner? My guess is that it was forgot with the concept of bouldering being for red point training. If your just looking to be ober strong and look cool. If your not looking to connect with nature and other people on an intimate level. Then how the hell do you have more of a right than me to say anything about anything related to rock climbing. If your not interested in the ethics recognized by the founders of mountaineering such as something as simple as LNT... I, personally dont care to talk to you. Because you are going to destroy this sport with your egotistical, self centered, inflated ideology. I wanted to find like minded people, rock climbers. And as this thread proves most are just corporate puppets being dragged along for the ride. And Im not necessarily talking about anyone in this conversation, although there are a few. This is more a declaration of sorts. You dont like it? You think Im wrong? I dont care, kiss off. Im going climbing.
You really ran the gamut in this post, everything from hating on boulderers to telling others what climbing should be about while referring to those you disagree with as egotistical.
Hank Caylor · · Livin' in the Junk! · Joined Dec 2003 · Points: 643
David Sahalie wrote: then why post off-topic in a forum discussing a different topic? You guys can just as easily give each other wood via PMs
back off Sahalie, you're awful lippy for a 5 week old.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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