Perma Draw Removal Alert -WARNING: NSFW

Yes you heard correctly folks, community funded perma draws are being swiped from the Red. Get your pitch forks & torches ready and check out the fun.

redriverclimbing.com/viewto…

Madness........cave too.

Killis Howard is fuckin awesome!
That is some of the best-writ funny shit I've read in a loooong time.
You can borrow my cams anyday.

Umph! wrote:That is some of the best-writ funny shit I've read in a loooong time.

+1

This thread got sassy fast.

Holy strawberries Batman! We're in a jam!

I don't clip bolts that often but what if routes like these were equipped with draws that had quick links on the hanger end? I've seen these on the wall of justice and it seems like it would be a pretty good idea at a place like the Red.

I have climbed there and I think it's sad that people would be stealing steel perma-draws. What do you do with them after? Seems ridiculous to me.

Also, what is up with the perma-draw hatin'? Sometimes I feel like some people think climbing is a religion and there are different interpretation. I feel like that is absolutely silly though. Just shut up and climb.

I think perma draws have gotten completely out of hand in the US, and many need to be removed, but the Motherload is one of the few places where they really make sense. If a place is ridiculously steep, with no easy, non destructive access to the top, the bolts are widely spaced and is so popular that draws would basically be hanging continuously anyway, high quality perma draws can help keep traffic moving along. They just need to be as low impact visually as possible and kept in good shape.

I don't like the proliferation to routes that really don't need them though. I am for them on certain routes at Rumney for instance, but I have also seen them sprouting up on routes where draws can be put on and cleaned very easily and for many years we all did that with no issues. I am not saying this from a macho attitude that disdains convenience (after all, it is sport climbing, where the point is the climbing and not fiddling with pro), but from an aesthetic that doesn't want the feeling that you are at a natural cliff and not in a gym destroyed. Over proliferation also increases the odds that they won't be maintained properly and we end up with a wall of unsightly and dangerous mess. Lets keep them to where they really make sense, like the Motherload, and resist the urge to leave them all over the place.

Killis Howard wrote:Almost logged off and fired up the wok...and then I read THIS: Re: PDs at Lode by SCIN » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:08 pm """"I think only Adam Taylor should be allowed to decide that permas need to be removed since he is the only elite level climber around here. Only an elite level climber should be allowed to make those decisions since if you're not elite level climber (meaning you don't climb 5.14c and no I'm not talking about working a single 5.14c for 2 years and then sending it) then you really don't understand what climbing is about. If you haven't dedicated your life to doing what it takes to climb 5.14 on a regular basis then you are just a shitty climber and don't deserve to make decisions for the rest of us. So, if you guys who took down the draws wank around on 5.13 and under and somehow feel proud about that then please reconsider your decisions since you are not professionals and don't deserve to make professional decisions. You are swimming in a shit hole and because you don't have shit on your hair yet you think you are clean.""""" Sheer poetry. I couldn't have put it better. You aren't a sport fag so YOU DON'T MATTER! Game, set, match. Fire up the tiki torches, it's time for the Fire Island BBQ...

Should we tell him?

Troyd wrote: Or, just traditionaly lead it, meaning clip your draws. .

That's awesome!

Troyd wrote: Brilliant, well said sir.

Mark is always the voice of reason = boring. It's more fun to get a rant out of him but that takes a lot of work. That's why he is a reliable partner.

But the problem here is that the masses - the average joe climbers see what the big boys - the "pros" (ridiculous term - a "pro" should be someone who actually makes enough $$$ to be at at least the 0.5 poverty level - in reality the average climbing "pro" is just spunging off of others - no different then the average wino and just as addicted - but I am digressing into a rant and in honor of Mark I will refrain) and feel that they should be able to behave the same way - in fact emulate the big boy behavior. Pink point vs. red point = "so last century" - in fact anything that will not stack the odds in my favor - anything that will not allow me to "add the tick" by the loosest "rules" possible will be ridiculed. If someone suggests that it might be an interesting challenge to try climbing in what would historically be better style - no stick clip, no prehung draws or (gasp) placing gear then that person will be ridiculed as out of the loop - unless of course that person is higher on the perceived pecking order - maybe a "pro" - then they are acclaimed as a cutting edge visionary.

So the masses are going to want prehung draws on all the 11's and 12's at Rumney - sorry Mark.

Sandman has a lot of good points, but when someone starts to tell me how I should climb (past not affecting the rock or others in a negative way), they are over the top, and no different then somebody like Ken Nichols. As long as I am not hogging a route, If I want to dog my way up the first half in a fat suite, that is my business.

I normally come out on the "don't steal fixed draws" side of thing. But I respect what these guys did as a tool of civil disobedience, and very blunt way of making us address the problem of overcrowding at the Red.

They put thought into this act of sabotage. They left cleaning draws, did not strip the Madness Cave, and left the stripped draws at Miguel's for retrieval by their owners. I actually agree with their theory that by slightly raising the entry fee at the Lode they will weed out some gym rats, numbers chasers, and gumbies (yes, gumbies can get on 5.13s).

In the long run, hell, even in the short run, however, this isn't going to do much. Some folks may not climb at the Lode when they realize that there are no permadraws, but they will simply go somewhere else. And eventually, unless there is a full-time crag police that strips draws on a weekly basis, shitty aluminum fixies will re-appear.

I won't take sides on the fixed draw issue at the moment, but I think Killis has a very scenic photo showing up on his profile... points for artistic flair at least, I didn't even read anything he may have said...

After reading those quotes, the strippers seem pretty reasonable to me. Sometimes a few bombs need to be thrown to wake people up from continually sliding down to the lowest common denominator. It's like when your mom makes you clean your pigstie room and you get all pissed off.

I'm not going to take sides on this, but I will say that if the magazines (R&I, Climbing, UC) want to stay relevant they should take up this issue ASAP.

Pretty pictures of spotless crags taken on a Tuesday evening with nobody around kind of misrepresents the sport, and I think that bringing some mainstream attention to this issue (and others like it) would be a great course of action.

With so many visiting and shitting all over the place some sort of plague will probably hit anyway and take care of the problem.

Peter Franzen wrote:I'm not going to take sides on this, but I will say that if the magazines (R&I, Climbing, UC) want to stay relevant they should take up this issue ASAP. Pretty pictures of spotless crags taken on a Tuesday evening with nobody around kind of misrepresents the sport, and I think that bringing some mainstream attention to this issue (and others like it) would be a great course of action.

Didn't they already do this at least in regards to New England? The problem is that they sent some obviously very biased and bad "reporter" who couldn't even get her facts straight to cover it and looked at it from a very narrow attitude of "I want, I want" and completely disregarded the land manager's rules and agreements local climbers had made with them previously.

John, I think the difference point to a more fundamental approach to climbing by the two parties.

There are people who enjoy climbing for the sake of experiencing nature, attempting to move up difficult terrain, and the related problems posed, whether thats freezing your ass off high on a mountain in a storm, or figuring out the right sequence of aid through a skeezy section of aid, or the right foot work on a slab way past your last piece. I think it's more of a process based experience. Man vs Nature to put it in literary terms.

Then there are people who like being strong. They climb because they like to fight themselves up incredibly difficult terrain. Incredibly difficult is either, steep/ overhung, or vertical and featureless. This group sees these problems as annoyances to the end goal, which is a battle against one self. Everything that isn't pulling down on something is just means to the end goal. It's a goal based experience. Man vs Man.

Each have their own ethical issues, their own bad guys and good guys, and when one group crosses the others path there will be friction. It doesn't matter if you climb trad or sport or whatever, these two factions exist. I'm solidly in the first group, and I have to recognize that when I am in the second groups realm and understand that isn't just my resource and there are more than a few ways to skin cats. I also end up in the back country a lot. I'll never climb 5.13.

Maybe the locals at the red should also be taking issue with the mags and video's promoting the place without a mention of the high impact in recent years from all the climbers; articles like this make the red a 'must-see' destination for a lot of climbers, but doesn't get them thinking about impact and taking care of the place. The folks at indian creek have done a better job of bringing attention to impact from visiting climbers and getting us thinking about it.

David Sahalie wrote: How did someone steal this community gear in broad daylight at the busiest time of year?

They weren't stolen. They were stripped, bundled and labeled according to which route they came from and left at the local pizza/climbing hangout to be claimed.