The Inevitable Peaks Crag Question

Tamara Hastie wrote:I have a simple response... Two words: Fuck him! But if the gym is handing out bouldering guides to the same sensitive area maybe there is a bit of confusion and should be a part of a bigger discussion??? JJ you know what that area needs...keep up your good work- here on MP and on the vertical and horizontal trail :)

Again, different area. The bouldering area guidebook is 20-30 minutes drive away from the rope area. There is no published guide to any climbing near the peaks rope climbing.

JJ Schlick wrote:I am just trying to figure this out. Obviously there are folks on either side of this one, and all I am trying to do is open it up so both sides can have their say. And just to reiterate, the crag is not a secret at this point, it just isn't published anywhere. The "personal message" was stripped of anything truly personal. The initials are not even real. The crag has about an equal number trad routes as sport routes, and it does lay on wilderness. I have no personal agenda on MP. I'm just trying to help out. I don't get anything for putting my time in here, and very few people even notice many of the corrections and changes I make. This thread isn't about me. This thread is about whether or not publishing the Peaks Crag would be good for the community or not good for the community.

Sadly it looks like the power drilling in the wilderness area is true.

How many routes, bolts, sets of top anchors are at The Peaks? 50, 300, 50?

Talk about a big no no. There has been a pretty big battle about fixed anchors in wilderness. The USFS has been under pressure to make any fixed anchors illegal.

"The Access Fund has been working since 1989 with all of the federal wilderness management agencies to resolve the issue of how fixed anchors should be managed."

accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5K…

"JJ, thank you for all that you do for the community."

I want to know what that is?

If he has been a new route person at The Peaks then JJ and The Peaks crew is damaging the climbing community with their selfishness to make an Illegal Crag.

After reading Dean's big jumbled emotional response I can pull out two good questions.

"Why, oh why would you threaten to embark on a course of action that could potentially harm access for ALL CLIMBERS!"

"but really why can't we (as a community) leave well enough alone? "

Good questions Dean, why would a couple of guys go bolt up a sport crag in a wilderness area. Does every little rock need to be bolted?

Damn irresponsible.

I think that after a handful of years and all the hours put into The Peaks that "The Crew" could have found some time to think about the consequences and involved the land manager.

But does a criminal walk into the police station to turn themselves in? No.

The Peaks "Crew" should do the climbing "COMMUNITY" a favor and ERASE this crag.

Go clean up the mess you made,Jason Boyd, JJ Shlick, ETC!!

Dean Hoffman wrote:So.... I've been really, really trying to stay out of the NAZ bashing as of late, seems like nothing good will come of it. But I can't bite my tongue any longer. Why, oh why would you threaten to embark on a course of action that could potentially harm access for ALL CLIMBERS! just because some folks (right or wrong) would prefer an area remain somewhat quite? Maybe there is some personal history that is not being revealed but regardless what good can come of any of this. I applaud JJ for putting this question to the masses, but really why can't we (as a community) leave well enough alone? Why is it that folks from abroad have such an issue with the NAZ contingency saying hey, lets leave this one off the web? I'm sure the Mill creek crowd would agree. (I actually think I almost got shanked there last year after showing up with a topo sketched from memory!) All kidding aside, don't take everything so personally and rather than threatening to destroy something great, say "hey if thats the local request no worries." I certainly hope that you wouldn't cruise over to the Czech Republic and say "f climbing with these lame knots I'm bolting this joint" (don't read too much into this analogy, it has nothing to do with the bolting not bolting debate, if you don't get ask someone who does. ) Anyhow before I get more off topic than I am I just want to say that I consider JJ to be a good friend and I find it disappointing that his attempts to do the right thing (putting it out to the community) are met with such disdain. Very disappointing. And lastly as always anonymous posters, in my mind carry very little weight.

You have to respect people that post online to try and get a consensus. Thanks JJ.

I vote leave it off of MP. To those that consider that to be an unfriendly thing to do - you should chat with locals in person about the Peaks. I have found everyone to be very friendly and willing to share information. But that place can get crazy so might as well limit information to a certain degree.

"I have found everyone to be very friendly and willing to share information."

Unless it's online, in which case people seem to get all up in arms about it.

Can we take the Devils Lake Page down and petition to have the guide book pulled from the shelves? I could go for a few less people there.

Edit: Sorry for the poke but this is what the argument sounds like. I know nothing of the area but have experienced this type of locale mentality at many places in the past. I've been at Devils Lake and had boy scout troops try to keep me off "their" wall as they were there 1st that day. And no I was not getting on a route they were going to attempt that moment or that day for that matter. I just think the whole concept of "keep it secret, keep it locale, this is my crag" is really funny.

muttonface wrote:I wonder if Stone Mtn will be in that one. I'm gonna be there for Thanksgiving just to climb some slab in the cold for the hell of it. Should be great fun/misery fest.

Stone will be the 4th area in the book. Should be interesting to see what photos they get from that place.

Base 1361 please identify yourself. I'm Tim Sinson.

Base 1361 or Grande Corde? How many personalities do you need on Mountain Project? I know of at least two with the same email...

I am genuinely sorry you are so bent out of shape over this rather small issue. Your overly dramatic responses, and personal attacks towards myself leave me thinking that you either have a lot to learn about climbing, or that you are a bit mentally unstable. I'm not sure, and frankly I don't care.

I signed on as an administrator to help keep things straight in my corner of AZ. I am a part of this climbing community, and of course I am going to represent the concerns and needs of this community. Why wouldn't I? If, for some reason, Andy has a problem with me being pro community, then I will gladly step down or turn the reins over to someone else. However, it is not going to be because some crybaby couldn't get his first post on the site.

Over crowding is an issue at this area already, and publishing it on the internet would only exasperate the problem. The limited parking and having jackasses parked in the road is the first real issue.

Once again, this is NOT a secret crag.

This crag is open to anyone.

But, for the time being, it does seem that we (as a community) are going to leave it off this site for now.

I've got to say that JJ is getting an unfair hit from folks that want their way absolutely without considering the big picture or the best course of action for the local community.

Dostol said leadership was in part: "to assure that everyone's personal doctrines can co-exist in a way that promotes safety, sustainability, continued access and (as much as possible) harmony." You can read the original email definitely does not follow your principles but I believe JJ is doing just that. I appreciate his leadership in the matter.

So when you say community are you referring to everyone in AZ or are you just talking about a section of AZ climbers from up north? Did you sign up just to keep the Peaks info off of here or is there more to it? Not trying to start shit but after reading some of the posts just am questioning some of your intentions.

I said local community, much like the community in Tucson and mine in Phoenix. I take it you don't know me or have read my profile. I live in Tempe and have been on this site under my real name for a while. I am not an anonymous poster unlike many who hide behind a clever moniker, you can actually see what I stand for.

I asked several folks about the Peaks and was given the info needed to get me there. Nobody told me to not share but rather to keep it off the web etc. IMO, it is a matter of respecting the wishes of those who put their money where their mouth is. No disrespect to you Ryan.

Hey Doug Stoltz from Indiana Pennsylvania: please provide quotes here....what exactly did jj say that was inflammatory and filled with personal insults? I must have missed those.... I look forward to you enlightening us on precisely what statements you are referring to.....

Manuel, I appreciate your response and I have looked at your profile and I do reliaze that you have done alot for the climbers here in AZ. I have never been to the peaks (lack of funds to get up there) but have admired so of the pictures that are contiously posted from the area. My comments were more toward JJ pulling the admin card to keep the area off MP. I'm with most of you that if you don't want an area to become public then keep it off the internet. But if you are going to show pics of the place and everything why not put a little info with it? Again not trying to stir the pot but just doesn't make sense.

JJ, is this the only matter that concerned you enough to become an admin.

George Perkins wrote:JJ, I am not familiar with the area or access issues, but my opinion on the best solution is you should post the area in the style of Isolation or Mill Creek. Explain on that page why locals have chosen to limit beta and keep the area quasi-secret without directions, and explain why specific route beta publicly available is against the local ethic. The "show-and-tell only" thing at least provides a direction for dedicated, interested climbers to learn about the area, but will keep 99% of out-of-town folks from bothering. I am generally not psyched about the whole "secret locals only area" thing though I understand not wanting to publicly share an area that is still in progress as far as discovering/bolting more climbs. But if there are valid reasons to keep it exclusive (which I'm not sure there are, in this case), I think this is the best way to deal with it on this website, rather than by deleting posts and being accused of censoring. It will also allow a page for the locals to spray and post photos. This also will prevent having to revisit this situation with the next enthusiastic poster who checks out the area next year. If someone is intent on making the area public against local wishes, they will do so through other websites or print mediums anyway; it can't be stopped entirely.

Why did this post get thrown to the wind? This seems to solve the problem quite elegantly. Put the area on MP just with very little info. Enough info to pique some interest in those truly looking for the "experience" that this crag provides, but keeps the tourists in places that are less sensitive and easier to access for a weekend.

If you didn't want people to vist "your crag" why did you install bolts and make a trail? People appreciating the hard work put into these routes is exactly the point. Make the climbing community earn the knowledge and they will be respectful. Easy come, easy go; right?

Greg, you're wrong. The Peaks got posted as a crag and it was deleted by admin JJ. JJ got some e-mail in response (posted above). Then JJ started this thread. The 'secret' nature has been requested by the route drillers, not the "community". I am more of a local than JJ & most others and don't care if The Peaks are in a guide or on the web. This thread is bad news for the crag and climbing in NorAZ. And JJ started it. He must be questioning a lot of angles to this issue.

Some of the questions raised are serious.

Where is the NACC , the access fund local group?? I paid my $20 membership and have yet to hear/see anything from them.

Greg wrote:The local "community" opted to keep the area out of the mainstream. JJ is simply trying to support that decision. The locals also asked the guidebook-in-progress guys to leave it out of the guide, and I believe they agreed to do so. If the local consensus established previously was that any and all PR for the area was a good idea, there would have been no reason to censure the original post. A lot of admins might just axe the post and not say a word, but JJ brought it up for discussion here so that the consensus could be reaffirmed (or not). To me, that says a lot about JJ's character (all good). Behind you all the way JJ.

For me, access is the always the most important issue. I hope to see it remain open.

For me, this thread illustrates an important point: First ascentionists might bear in mind that one disgruntled climber could have a huge impact on access. Here a disgruntled climber (rightly or wrongly) threatens to complain to the Forest Service about using a motorized drill in wilderness, presumably seeking to close access and encourage prosecution.

A while back I started a monthly MP series to try gain some kind of southern Arizona consensus about these kind of issues. mountainproject.com/v/south…

It did not work out very well. A friend later told me that I might as well have started a discussion about which religion is best. He was right, of course.

We cannot control the behavior of the disgruntled climber.

We can only control our own behavior. If a complaint occurs, then I think it crucial to involve the Access Fund before responding to authorities.

I am a criminal defense attorney. I previously defended (for free) a climber wrongly accused of climbing related crimes. I will donate my services again--- if it becomes necessary. I would hate to see access lost because of an unmeasured response.

Scott Mc

Hey super climber. That was fun. But had nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. Why is your account anonymous?

if a bolt is installed in a cliff and no one else is around, does the Hilti make a sound?

Looks like this has descended into another rant dominated by people with little stake in the matter keeping themselves anonymous. As far as I'm concerned your words are worthless.