Do you Check the Top?

Clay Borne wrote:It appears that the two parties involved have expressed their sides of the story. It seems to have been resolved. Dead thread I hope...

Are you fucking kidding me? I won't be content with this thread until some bitch slapping occurs or internet threats spawn.

Get it on!

Parker H wrote:If the top of a route is easily accessible, most likely there is activity there, especially if the crag is popular.

Malarkey! Sorry Parker but that's such a broad statement that it can't be taken seriously. It still doesn't solve the issue either; is every lead climber expected to march to the top of the crag, check that it's ok to lead, march down, and have at it?

Parker H wrote:...The group that we being lead by the AMGA Guide was a Single Pitch Instructor Course...

I don't know how crowded the Salt Lake City area is, but I will say that I have been, both privately and professionally, very vocally critical of organizations of any stripe that choose to have instructional seminars on rock that either sees a lot of traffic or where you can't see what's being done from the ground. Outward Bound actually responded to the same criticisms from the community at large and no longer goes to popular areas on weekends at my local crag. You'd think the AMGA, being pretty well organized and all, would mention that in their classes: pick your spots to not inconvenience other climbers, they may be your future clients.

There was a lot of assumptions going on to make you feel like you were in the right, but unless there's a big sign that says "these two routes share anchors" or its the sort of place where going up without a topo is not really reasonable (so, not a sport area), you can't be critical of somebody otherwise climbing an independent line because you end up sharing anchors with them.

Put another way, you're not in the right, but neither is Andrew.

Also, "This crag was developed for top site management and top rope teaching. There are bolts installed for personal anchors to set up top ropes on fixed anchors." Really? Does the AMGA own the crag? If not, that statement is really just your attempt to whitewash reality to fit your position. If I can get on the crag, legally, without knowing that information, then it really isn't a valid argument against Andrew's position.

Just a little perspective for those of you who have never been there:

Draper Red Rocks is super over developed. There are benches installed at the base of the cliff, each route's name and rating is on a placard at the bottom of the route, and someone actually went through the trouble of installing steps up to the top of the cliff for easy TR access. If I was trying to think of a place to teach people how to climb, I would definitely put it at the top of my list.

All that said, it's a small crag with a lot of traffic due to it's short approach and close proximity to town (ie: there are houses built across the street). Given these facts, I think it's important to be especially considerate of others and not take up too many routes for too long.

Remember kids, good communication is key.

To answer only the original question. In my opinion, for most perhaps not all cases...

If you are setting up a TR you should be checking that there is no one on the route you're trying to set up. But as a leader I have NEVER and will NEVER hike to the top of a route to check that there isn't someone trying to set up a TR on the route.

The point is kinda moot for me anyway most places I climb it would be a 20-30 minute hike if not much longer to get to the top of the route, if even possible.

Parker H wrote:This crag was developed for top site management and top rope teaching. There are bolts installed for personal anchors to set up top ropes on fixed anchors. The group that we being lead by the AMGA Guide was a Single Pitch Instructor Course.

What exactly does that mean? "crag was developed for TR site mgmt". As I understand it, the OP was leading a sport-bolted pitch. Sounds like it was "developed for sport climbing" to me, otherwise why would there be lead bolts for sport climbing?

Am I misunderstanding something here, or does this guide really expect that people routinely go around scoping the top of crags before leading a pitch?

Really Parker? You think that you can put some gear down for an anchor and call dibs? Either you are actively climbing a route or you are not. You planed to make someone else wait, they called your bluff, you made up some rules on the spot, and now they are calling you out on the internet for it. Sorry bro, that's life, there's another thread going about when to open your mouth, you chose the wrong time.

T.C. wrote:Either you are actively climbing a route or you are not.

I agree with this. If you are actively climbing something, then it's yours, and whomever shows up afterwards should wait patiently until you're done. However, it's not ok to "reserve" a route and then not climb it and keep anyone else from climbing it.

And as for the original post, I don't think anyone checks the top of a climb before they begin leading.

I don't know what sort of "guide" would think this was required. Certainly not a "guide" that I would want to hire.

Mr. Sanders is a shit talker, just likes to add to his post count..

Lead climbers always have priority.. they can always hang the toprope if need be..

As for the OP- the so called guide is in the wrong.. locals have priority and if he truly was up there early he should have dropped a line..

If there is no one on the route at the time .... Its open .... Period

There is no obligation on the leader to hike to the top of the climb to insure that a guide is not teaching a class

If a guide so wanted, they could leave a sign at the base, but there is no oligaion in squamish to let people or guides hog routes that no one is on

Most professional guides here will gladly let u climb a route they are not using ...they are professionals after all who may benefit from yr business

There are signs here that explicitely indicate that guides and other groups do not have the right to hog climbs

1) 80% of sport routes do not go all the way to the top anyway. What was he thinking?

2) Lead climbers do not automatically have the right to the climb. If the topropers are at the top looking down on the folks about to climb, then they have the right to hang the damn toprope since they were at the climb first. Lead climbers are not more important than anyone else. Anyone who thinks differently needs lessons on ethics and manners.

"I was climbing at a local, public crag yesterday and was scolded by a "guide" who was teaching a top-rope rigging class for not checking with the top of the crag on a route."

Was it Tony C. I have witnessed him loudly scold someone every time I have been in the vicinity . . . though usually it's his clients.

Jim Gloeckler wrote:1) 80% of sport routes do not go all the way to the top anyway. What was he thinking? 2) Lead climbers do not automatically have the right to the climb. If the topropers are at the top looking down on the folks about to climb, then they have the right to hang the damn toprope since they were at the climb first. Lead climbers are not more important than anyone else. Anyone who thinks differently needs lessons on ethics and manners.

Sorry Jim, but lead climbers (read: climbers) have prerogative over top ropers (read: glorified swingers). If you are at the top looking down at someone about to actually climb a route you must wait to swing around on the end of your rope. Now most people I have ever met at the crag are reasonable enough to share; but just so you know priority goes to the lead climber. That there is a lesson in ethics, manners might be another story.

The Bobby wrote: Okay, but I'm going Rock.

Good ol' rock, nothing beats rock.

JPVallone wrote: It looks like there are two issues now going on in this thread, the OP's scenario, and Evan Sanders debate of right away based on your speed?

Wasn't a debate, just me stating my opinion. Didn't realize people would get so touchy over one comment.

ilclimberken wrote:Mr. Sanders is a shit talker, just likes to add to his post count..

To be quite honest, I was unaware MP even had a post counter.

Not really sure how there was any shit talking in this thread either...

Evan Sanders wrote: Pot calling the kettle black don't ya think

?

Could I ask if Parker H is a mormon?

dan zika wrote: Could I ask if Parker H is a mormon?

Mormons are a cult. Joe Smith married teenagers. The LDS Church turned Utah into a police state. Mormons are trying to take your wives. Parker shouldn't have been climbing on a Sunday. Mormons really hate Jesus. There you go Dan - I saved you trouble AND the need to be woefully unoriginal. You're welcome.

quit whining and climb somewhere else or come back another day. IMO climbing should be a peaceful sport, there's enuff arguing and fighting in the world, keep your ego out of it