Belaying the leader with a Munter off of the anchors

To clarify Jim's comment about the "power point" belay, he is referring there to leader fall catches when their is gear higher up on the pitch, not to the factor-2 situation.

The problem with the power point belay when the device is on the power point is that the whole show will be jerked upwards until the power point slings become tight in the direction of an upward pull. The effect depends, of course, on how long those slings are.

Not sure why you would want to use a Munter, especially on multipitch. An ATC weighs very little and it is challenging enough to keep your ropes untwisted after 10 pitches. I couldn't imagine the frustration of using a Munter for that many pitches.

The munter doesn't really twist your rope until it's weighted.

I climb to spend good time safely solving problems with good friends. Just like in life, there are trade-offs that need to be known in different methods. We ultimately decide what we deem acceptable or not.Instead of hating those who have differing views or opinions as mine, I will read and learn from what is said...both the sound and unsound comments. Thanks to all of you who have participated in "enlightening" me! Climb safe.

I do the same thing Ryan Williams mentions, and your follower should be cloved in the anchor anyways ja? So if fall is too much for belayer I always figured the anchor would catch them before they go too far up.

This is very interesting though, never thought so much in depth about it.. Something else to keep on the mind while leading I guess... (sarcastic) great..

At least with the ropes I have used, the Munter hitch "wants" to twist the rope while belaying. You have to kind of fight it with torque from your hands as you feed through. After a few pitches though, I started getting a few twists anyways.

Rapelling with a munter most certainly does twist the rope. I think a big biner and a thin rope might let you monster munter on a single line if you drop your belay device, but it would be slow.

i like how the guy from texas immediately talks shit, without providing any insight on the physics that others elaborate quite reasonably on. way to be a typical texan douchebag, you live up to the standard that you and your fellow statesmen have set.

Jim Titt wrote:All the tests I´ve got (DAV, Manin,CAI etc) and my own tests give the HMS around 25 to 30% more braking power than normal belay devices.

Anybody feeling froggy and want to bring the double munter into the mix? ( potomacmountainclub.org/con…) I just double checked, and it can be reversed ;)

In any case, I like knowing there are two human bodies absorbing the fall/distributing the force--rather than my human body cranking on a hard point--be it a Munter, Guide, or GriGri that's binding the rope.

Line 8

Old thread but here's a few links on the issue for anybody looking up this topic down the road.

Nearly every party I saw on technical terrain in the Alps this past summer was belaying the leader directly off the anchor (a bolted anchor since nearly every anchor is bolted) with a Munter.

One video and one paper so you can pick your learning style of choice!

vimeo.com/channels/acmgtech…

www.outdoorlink.org/research-papers/part-5-belaying-lowres.pdf

Good link, Leroy.

IMO, this is a worthwhile technique to have in your toolbox. It may not be right for everything but it can make a big difference in many situations. For example, I've found the fixed point belay to be especially useful when the pitch starts with a traverse (where a fall would pull the belayer sideways) or when the belay is situated under a roof (where a fall would pull the belayer into the roof).

Thanks for posting this Leroy. Really good video, that clarifies a lot of the issues raised with alternative belay methods mentioned in the thread. Several things interesting to note, esp. at the end of the video with the f.f. 1.5 simulated lead fall - when the fall was caught with a belay device, the belayer was pulled up several feet, and surprisingly violently, whereas when caught on a munter, the catch was far less severe, which would seem to put far less force on the fixed point, and anchor in general. It seems that the catch with the munter was much more dynamic - something I'd never really considered. I've always used the munter for convenience, or when I'd forgot, or accidentally dropped my device.

The second thing is that it seems this would be a much safer system on a bomber bolted anchor, or a trad anchor where the fixed point's main piece was a tree or some other bomber piece. Lastly, it raises questions about equalized anchors where you have an equalized master point ie using a cordalette or equalette etc., versus belaying off a fixed point of an anchor, either in the vertical or horizontal orientation as per the video, which seems to go against some of the SERENE requirements, as it isn't a fully equalized anchor. I guess, it makes me wonder the best method of belaying off an anchor this way with a munter (or an atc), if it's an all gear trad anchor with decent, but not perfect placements. Or for that matter, the best way to set the anchor up for belaying off of it - fixed point, or master point. Also, what about if using the rope for the anchor, instead of a cordalette etc. Thoughts?

I'm a bit of a late convert to using a Munter directly of a BOLTED anchor, but it is very, very good.

I use it when the belayer if much lighter, the fall unlikely (i.e. I'm not working a pitch), but the fall might be bad news, i.e. you slip on a 5.7 in the mountains. The only thing that comes close is a grigri.

The fixed point belay actually has Higher forces on the top piece than a regular belay

;)

Belaying with a munter from (bolted) anchors has two distinct advantages compared to an ATC in guide mode.
The switchover is much faster. Once the follower arrives at the belay he can just keep going. No need to change anything.
Also if the follower falls before the first piece of protection, the knot "flips" and the fall can be safely caught.

Moritz B. wrote:Belaying with a munter from (bolted) anchors has two distinct advantages compared to an ATC in guide mode. The switchover is much faster. Once the follower arrives at the belay he can just keep going. No need to change anything. Also if the follower falls before the first piece of protection, the knot "flips" and the fall can be safely caught.

Whoa! You mean to tell me that the Munter can safely catch a follower? Holy cow. I thought it was only good enough to catch a leader. Learn something everyday.

My bad, I meant to say "(...)if the leader falls before the first piece of protection (...)

Thanks for pointing this out in such an incredibly witty way ;-)

I think the Munter on the anchor is primarily for bolted multipitch sport climbs. The fact that it can as much as double the load on the top piece compared to an ATC on the harness suggests it is not a great idea for trad protection.

I'm with you rgold. Unfortunately videos seem to have such authority whether right or wrong. This is supported by the above poster stating that belaying off thr anchor reduced loads.

the video made by the ACMG on fixed point belaying is sound and based on their testing and usage .. more than what we can say about many intrawebers

they make no mention of reduction of forces on the top piece

and the research i posted from the journal of mountain risk management (in german) is fairly recent, they would likely not have been aware of it at the time of the video

to put it simply, the steeper the climb is, the more likely a big whipper is (on easier lower angle climbs youre more likely to smack ledges) ... in the canadian rockies anyways there are a fair number of steep multi sport climbs where a normal belay might mean youll get pulled in and smacked into the rock if your partner takes a big whipper (unless you can lower your belay) ...

i suspect those euro bums face similar climbs (verdon, etc ...)

as to the "suitability' for trad ... i assume beat kammerlander knows what hes doing on 5.14 microgear runnout FAs and the belays he wants on em ... more than most MPers anyways

youtube.com/watch?v=FH82iIp…

;)